Housework - who ibu?

[nobilityobliges]

I am 25 and getting married to my boyfriend of five years this summer. He is fantastic, and I love him very much. Pretty much the only problem in our relationship arises out of arguments about housework.

I am a really messy person. On top of this, I am currently working as a trainee solicitor in a big London firm, which means that I often don't get in til 9 or 10pm, sometimes have to work weekends. So I have a limited amount of free time, which I don't want to spend doing housework.

My fiancé, on the other hand, is pretty houseproud, and mess stresses him out. I try to accommodate him, and am a lot tidier than I would otherwise be. I also pay for a cleaner to come weekly. He still does more housework though. However, he has a lot more free time than me - he has been at home finishing his phd for a while, and now he has finished it, he is brushing up his coding skills (a different area from his phd) before beginning a job in that area in a few months time (he already has the job). I think this is a good career move and support him in it. I supported him financially through the last year of his phd, and am still supporting him now (ie I pay rent/council tax/food bills/going out etc). I'm happy to do this, and he is really working hard getting his skills up to speed and is definitely not just lazing around the house while I'm at work.

But my fiancé still just brings up my messiness a lot. For example, there will often be a buildup of my breakfast/dinner stuff in the sink (my bf washes up as he goes). I also often just leave stuff lying round -- eg my make up on the sofa after I apply it in the morning then rush out without putting it away, coffee cups round the living room, clothes in a pile on the chair in our room rather than put away etc etc. Nothing major, but definitely quite a bit of general mess. My fiancé thinks that this stuff is completely unreasonable and that I'm completely selfish for not being tidier.

My view is that (1) it's my flat too, and he has to accept that we'll be meeting in the middle mess-wise, (2) I am working very hard at a job, and it's unreasonable to expect me to also spend ages on housework, when this is something I fundamentally don't give a shit about and (3) I am contributing a lot by paying the rent and bills, so even if he ends up doing more housework than me, it's still a fair split.

The problem is that when I raise the fact that I am paying bills he gets very upset, and tells me that I'm trying to control him financially, and that if it was a man telling a woman this I'd be up in arms etc. I just don't know what's right. I do make an effort, but I'm not going to transform into a really tidy person, and I feel he should cut me some slack. I also acknowledge that he is putting every effort into increasing his future earning potential, but also feel that my current financial contribution shouldn't count for nothing either.

We seem to spend so much of our time arguing about this, and it's bringing me down. Any views or advice would be appreciated! Sorry this is so long....

Anything that takes less than a minute, and involves cleaning up after yourself, should be done by the person who made the mess. In almost any circumstances.

Solve your peoblem quick and easy and hire a cleaner/housekeeper.
If otherwise you're OK with your fiancee, outrource the jobs that could bring discord.

He sounds entitiled?! Are we reading the same thread??!

Icing that is not the quick and easy solution. There's a lot more to it- who pays what, who has what time. It is a loaded subject that a cleaner can only help on the surface ime

YABU. Haven't read the whole thread but from opening post my feelings are:
It's not 'only housework'. You are marrying the man and will live together hopefully for a long time. These things matter.
I couldn't live with you.
Tidying up after yourself isn't actually contributing anything to housework, it's the bare minimum, and really lazy not to do it.
Why did you mention money? What's that got to do with anything?

SO interesting! It feels like the tables have just been turned and you are treating your partner the way husbands used to treat wives! Rather than be responsible for yourself in a space that you share with another person, you judge his work as less demanding than yours and give him your mess to clean up. And your justification for that is that you pay for it. Just like men used to do!

You say he has more time, but only because you have chosen that life-style. You can't lay that on him. He is doing something equally important but at a different pace: he shouldn't be obliged to use the time he makes for himself to make up for you poor work life balance. You have to self-manage if you want an equal partnership.

I'm like you, messy. My partner is messier and we both work from home. He is much better than I am in putting his work first - if we left it to him, the place would be a serious tip and that actually destroys the equilibrium I need to get on with my work. I just notice mess more than he does.

The fact that we are different with different standards has to be acknowledged and we start from there. I now give him specific tasks to do which he does, knowing they are important to me. I hate being his manager, but I have to admit it matters more to me than him, so I take it on.

Still on your side OP - he sounds so petty from reading the full thread and really quite unsupportive. It's a makeup bag and a mug ffs!

All of the above are why I'm so much happier living alone (I'm the messy one)

Sounds like you might need to change your habits a bit. I can understand why your bf gets annoyed if the mess isn't of his making but he's the one at home most of the time living with it, especially as he works from home too. How would you feel if other people came into your office and left their dirty coffee/tea cups on your desk or their coat draped over your chair? Also, you say he's at home brushing up his skills before getting a job - what happens when that happens and neither of you have as much free time? If you take money out of the equation and just look at it from the perspective of sharing a home together and what is reasonable behaviour, I would say doing a bare minimum of clearing up after yourself is not an unreasonable expectation of each other. Like others have said, you just have to make a shift in your thinking - that the process of having a cup of tea involves washing the cup up afterwards, or getting undressed is followed by - at a minimum - putting dirty clothes on a chair, not left on the floor. As I'm writing this, I feel like that's the sort of thing say to my children (aged 4, 10 and 13) ...not a responsible grown up...

I think it is not about cups or phd's but about supporting eachother in difficult times.

he should notice how knackered you are and wash your cup or do his fair share of housework out of wanting to support you.
he should also appreciate you supporting him financially

you should try to tidy up as well as you can because you know he dislikes the untidiness and you are aware it is more respectful that he does not need to sit next to your dirty cup or make up bag

both of you will sometimes fail but there will always be the other one to pick you up when you do so.

you need to sort out both of you feeling resentment towards eachother.

He is bloody lucky that the OP supported him financially for a year (+?) instead of him getting at least a part-time job and contributing financially while he did his writing up, as so many people have had to do.

theo,

I think her being untidy and not bothering generally is because of the sheer exhaustion her work brings her.

My husband has periods like that too. In those periods I try to support him and let lots of things go because I know he just doesn't have the mental energy to do it.

However, I also make sure that he appreciates that I am supporting him extra and that I still don't want to be his maid. It's all about trying to find a balance. He absolutely acknowledges this and values my support hugely, he will also do his best to 'make up for it' when he can and however he can.

Personally I couldn't give all of my life to a job like that (i did and failed miserably, then changed some priorities)

I have not read all the comments, but 2 things strike me.

1. Makeup left on the sofa is a hazard to someone who wants to use the sofa to sit on or lie on etc which is its purpose.
   Your makeup could probably damage the sofa or someone's clothes if your bf doesn't actively tidy up after you, which is unfair. Unless you have several sofas and this one is not going to ever get used by your bf or visitors as a sofa, you cannot expect to use it as a shelf all day while you are out but he is in.
   Why not have a decorative box that can sit next to the sofa that you can just scoop or drop your make-up into?
   On the other hand a coffee cup left by the sink is untidy but not inappropriate.

2. If you make this about money now, you will find it is about money if/when your bf earns the same or more than you, and you will hate that, because even if you are jobseeking you won't be mentally able to do it how he wants it. Any other reason for earning less than him (kids, illness, disability, he gets promoted above you) would make it even harder for you than it is now. Although right now that might not be in your life plan, it could happen, so genuinely think that through in a quiet half hour, and then I suggest backtracking and apologising for that part of what you said, and stick to it being about available time, and the compromise that comes with sharing your lives and living space. You are both going to have to compromise, so go in with your best will and open mind.

I've only read the first couple of hundred posts and I've been thinking about this ever since.

You are only 25. You're working exceptionally long hours as a trainee solicitor. You are completely funding this young man - rent, bills, going out AND a cleaner. He has a lot more time to himself than you do. He moans because you don't wash up your cup or put away your make up in a home that you are completely funding. I notice you do his washing at the weekend - he washes a few more of his own things mid week.

In my opinion, he's a cocklodger.

I'm not against couples helping each other out but if someone paid my rent and all my bills and a cleaner and if I had lots more spare time to do what I wanted, I would show some gratitude. You're not married. You don't have children together. He's taking his own sweet time, doing what he wants, with the promise that in the future all will be well financially.

He wouldn't be able to live like he does without you. He wouldn't be able to change his mind about his career without you. He wouldn't have food in his belly or a warm home to sit in without you. You are coming home at 10 pm, knackered, and he's left your breakfast dishes for you to wash? That is disgraceful.

I have children your age and if they were in your position I'd urge them to live alone rather than with someone like this.

Honest answer? It would annoy me, even if my husband was home at 10, if he wouldn't bring a cup from the living room into the kitchen to be washed. It's not really housework, it's picking up after yourself. This is also something I am trying to instil into the children.

There are other things that would not bother me - such as clothes on a chair (because I do that ).

Division of housework is a whole other discussion.

And it would annoy me even more if he said he wouldn't do it because he worked hard. In fact, sometimes we have discussions re the house and, despite the fact that he works more hours than I do, he lives here. It's not about who works the hardest. It's about having the house where you both want it.

As for meeting in the middle, I guess you have to both decide which bits bother you the least and compromise on those first. So, for example, if he's prepared to let the chair go, perhaps you could say OK, I'll put my make up upstairs?

He is bloody lucky that the OP supported him financially for a year (+?) instead of him getting at least a part-time job and contributing financially while he did his writing up, as so many people have had to do.

I don't know anyone apart from myself who took a part time job when completing their PhD. If their funding run out, those who didn't already have a post doc or professional job to go to (many, perhaps most people) just claimed income support for a few months. I worked part time but only because I could earn enough in a couple of days to support myself for the rest of the week while I wrote up. I wouldn't have done a part time minimum wage job.

All I see here is "I provide financially, I go out to work, I can't be assed cleaning after myself."

All I see here is "I provide financially, I go out to work, I can't be assed cleaning after myself."

I am basing this on my own dh who worked either full or part-time throughout. There is no way I would have paid for him to be at home just to finish it, when there are other options. Claiming income support for a few months is a far cry from having your young partner supporting you for over 12 months (with little in return, it would seem).

Surro, try opening your eyes

There is no way I would have paid for him to be at home just to finish it, when there are other options.

The other option would have been for him to no longer live with OP and perhaps move out of London though. Perhaps she didn't want that any more than him considering that they are engaged.

For those saying OP should get a cleaner, RTFT she has got a cleaner already ( a propos, does the 50% of the household chores that the OP should do despite reduced leisure time include what the cleaner does ?).

Sadly the cleaner isn't going to arrive at 7.30am to tidy away the makeup bag and rinse out the offending coffee cup every day.

I'm firmly on the OP's side btw. Anyone who points out a left out mug when their partner has been at work for 15 hours straight is quite frankly an arse.

I don't think it's a matter of her saying that she's the main breadwinner so her partner needs to tidy up, it's more like she's already doing 15 hour days and getting up super early to get into work, but according to some she should get up even earlier to rinse away her cereal bowl and coffee cup and tidy away her make up bag - the very same one she keeps in the living room so she doesn't wake him up when putting her make up on super early so she can get into work - as the sight of them offend her poor dear fiancé so much. They don't offend him enough to actually wash them up mind, not even when he has some dishes in the sink already and it would make sense to wash them then, not it seems they offend his aesthetic sensibilities aka he must have too much time on his hands to look at him.

I know I grew up a lot between the ages of 20 -25, it's hard to know what a person will grow into whilst they are still maturing. I find it hard to imagine that the fiancé is genuinely lovely in all other ways, or he wouldn't be making such a song and dance about this.

My DP used to be like this. It was a constant battle for years until he finally realised leaving plates and cups around the house is disgusting (there was a time when I wouldn't pick up after him and he'd have to wash the mould out of the dishes!) so yes, it takes 2 seconds to put your stuff away, it's not about housework, it's about remembering. Even if it means chucking your makeup in a box or leaving stuff in the sink and your OH can wash up if he's ok with that. You can't just chuck money at him and expect him to deal with your mess

Or another option might have been for him to get an evening job or a job in a call centre, like so many PhD students do. But no, he's happy in his free flat, eating his free food, using his free heating and going out for free drinks. He's happy when the cleaner cleans the flat, too. What he's not happy about is when he sees a rogue make up bag and wants to know why his knackered girlfriend hasn't put it away.

I'd be ashamed of him if he was my son.