To 'confront' this man when he asked for the priority seat on the bus

[YoJesse]

Me and Ds 3 were on a really packed bus, no seats left at all. I was standing and Ds was on one of the priority seats. The other 7 priority seats were taken up with what looked like young able bodied people and on Dad with a baby.

A man 50ish gets on, walks past all the other seats and says to me 'I'm disabled, can you move your son?' I got Ds up without questioning it but then I heard the Dad with the baby say to the man 'fucking hell, seriously mate?' This got me thinking that maybe it was a bit unfair so I tapped him on the shoulder and said 'as you can see I'm happy to give up the seat for you but as you can see there are lots of young, able looking people on the other priority seats, don't you think you should of asked them not my son?' He then goes off on one say ' I'm disabled, your son should be sitting in here in the first place etc' so I said that he is less able to stand on a moving bus than most other people so maybe he is entitled to the seat. The man got all sweaty and angry and I felt really uncomfortable so I got off.

Was I unreasonable to confront him?

Fanjo if an adult is less able to stand and it isn't visibly obvious they do need to ask for a seat - it does go from the sublime to the ridiculous if people are now saying everyone who is capable of standing must offer their seat to any random adult (who hasn't even asked for it) just on the off chance they are less able to stand - I think that is all HeteronormativeHaybales is saying in response to the people who keep popping up saying they make their children stand for all adults, just because they want to look like perfect Old Fashioned Parents and bask in others' approval Manners.

No, you were out of line in this case.

No, they shouldn't need to ask for a seat in case it results in being abused like the man on this thread.

Anyway I haven't been involved in this thread much so not going to start now..I can see why some people have been very upset by attitudes on it.

FanjofortheMammaries if somebody has a hidden disability and looks young and healthy, and they get onto a bus where all the seats are full, how can anyone telepathically know they are less able to stand unless they ask for a seat? If 8 young healthy looking people get onto a bus, should 8 other people give up their seats to them just in case?

Of course not! If somebody needs to sit they may have to ask if the bus is full, the only point that needs making is that of course somebody able to stand should have the grace to give the seat up to somebody who needs it more without confrontation.

That is the problem on this thread and the reason it has gone wrong IMO - there is common sense (disabled people should be given a seat without confrontation if they ask for one) and there is overreaction and impractical expectations (nobody should ever have to ask - its just not possible on a packed bus - or all children of any age should give up their seats to any and every adult including adults without disabilities who are neither elderly nor pregnant nor carrying infants, because that is apparently Manners, even though a small child is less able to hold on and far more likely to be badly hurt if an adult lands on them in the case of emergency braking than an adult where both those people do not have disabilities).

Perfectly sensible points become infeasible and unrealistic when taken to an extreme - of course some people are going to have to ask, quite simply because there is no way of anyone knowing they need the seat more unless they do so and because it is crazy to expect that some kind of strange game of musical chairs has to occur at every bus stop, where everyone who is physically able to stand offers their seat to everyone else just on the off chance, in order to avoid anyone having to ask...

Seemsalot "old fashioned" is just a stealth boast on MN, but some "old fashioned" things are illogical and foolish - a disabled person has priority over a 3 year old, but a healthy adult without disabilities does not - a 3 year old is more likely to be injured in the case of emergency braking or a crash standing up on a bus than a healthy adult without disabilities, and if "good old fashioned manners" dictate the 3 year old stands for an able bodied adult then those manners need actually thinking about for a moment and our attitude to them needs revising.

Just accepting that something is good/ right/ the natural order of things without engaging brain for a few minutes and actually thinking it through just because your (generic your - one's) parents' generation said so is sheep like and nothing to be proud of.

I think priority seats don't work on overcrowded busses in the same way that first class does not work on overcrowded trains. People get fed up looking at empty seats and say 'sod that'

I begin to wonder whether UnderCrackers has actually been on a bus. If she had, she'd be well aware that the rule is that anyone can sit in the priority seats, but if they are able-bodied they should be prepared to give up to the seat if someone who qualifies for it gets on.

'MNHQ have made it extremely clear that disabled people are 'other' and that therefore it's open season to deride and lock them and their caregivers.

Hence why they're all piling in.'

BishopBrennansArse, while we are completely open to feedback of all descriptions - we rather draw the line at out-and-out untruths such as this one. This really isn't the case.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne.i never insulted anyone ( bar calling them ignorant) so yes i am very insulted that my posts were deleted, after telling certain posters exactly whay it is like to just live a day for me.

kali I honestly can't remember what was in any specific person's deleted post, I just meant the tone of the thread had become quite aggressive and vitriolic. I believe you, but I don't remember what was in your specific deleted posts. There were some very unpleasant screechy ones, and it would seem fair and balanced to treat each post on its merits rather than because of who posted them.

I have not seen anyone laughing at people with disabilities (as somebody else claimed) on this thread either, but presumably that and the animal abuse comments were about other threads

Seems "Priority seats, IMO, aren't for children unless they have special needs." - they aren't for adults without special needs (of various sorts including pregnancy and being elderly and frail) either, but anyone is allowed to sit in them if they are the only seat free until asked to move by somebody who has priority. People might think that nobody without priority should sit in those seats, but if all the seats on the bus are taken any passenger can sit in them until asked to give them up - this is policy with most operators no matter what people want to believe www.transportfocus.org.uk/faqs/accessibility/priority-seating# , and indeed it is safer for everyone if nobody is standing.

Adults without priority (by which I mean adults who do not have a disability, are not pregnant or elderly and frail, are notcarrying an infant) don't have any priority whatsoever over children just because they are older than them... and an adult without disabilities who is not pregnant, elderly and frail, or holding a baby is safer standing than a 2/3/4/5/6 year old in case of emergency braking or a crash.

i think BB has a point, by deleting the posts made by the very people that this kind of stuff affects......as in carers and disabled people it is othering them and sending out a strong message that the kind of posts about "disabilities" and the goading is allowed.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne oh yes i wasn't having a go at you.
Yes i feel un last year that this site has gone down conpletely.
I've been on numerous threads with peopke making disgusting comments about animals that have just been allowed to stand
This has just been the final straw.
I'm really saddened as i used to love this site.

"Just accepting that something is good/ right/ the natural order of things without engaging brain for a few minutes and actually thinking it through just because your (generic your - one's) parents' generation said so is sheep like and nothing to be proud of."

Logically I know that there are plenty of things my parents (especially mum) inculcated in me that are wrong - and I do see that small children are at greater risk, standing on public transport, than a healthy adult - but when I think of 'defying' my mum's 'rules' on matters of politeness and manners, I still (at age 51) get an instinctive clutch in my stomach - a little lurch of fear.

I think it is that, for mum, manners were everything, so her 'rules' on good manners were very firmly and strongly taught - and the consequences for breaking the rules were scary - and even as a rational, logical adult, it is not easy to just discard these rules.

Samcro - although I reiterate that I don't know what the content of each deleted post was, and agree goady posts shouldn't be allowed to stand, surely it is not appropriate to leave posts that break talk guidelines to stand because they are posted by disabled people? I don't know whether that is what you are saying? Could it be that posts with valuable content also had an inappropriately aggressive tone or included personal attacks or goading as well as that useful/ valuable/ educational content, and so the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater?

I don't think posts can be partially deleted, leaving the useful and removing the aggressive parts - perhaps that is the problem here.

kali I must say I have not seen any of those posts, but of course there are tens of thousands of posts a day on such a huge, fast moving site.

Interesting of you Katherine. Not once have I had a single response to any report I've made on this thread. Some of my points have been deleted but not posts which goaded me into response.

Outrageous opinions have been allowed to stand. I suppose we're back to the educating despite what that does to posters days.

I posted too soon! I meant to add that, as the dses are 18, 20 and 22, I don't have to fret about whether to make them stand up on public transport, if someone needs their seat, because they are fit and capable of doing so, so thankfully I don't have to worry about incurring mum's wrath!

STD :o yes I get that. My mother also gets offended by me doing things she wouldn't, and I do think she imbibed her mother's rules by osmosis and never questioned them. She used to take it very personally every time she witnessed me not following her unwritten "rules" for my kids, and say "why do you do that, that's not how I brought you up" or "that's not what we did with you" - and when I explained why I had decided to do things differently in this specific area she would role her eyes and say "oh you're so analytical" (which I am not sure was meant to be a compliment :o ) Ironically she has a professional science background but she never applies that rigorous thinking to every day life, she is a master of compartmentalising :o I am only 10 years younger than you and this is not about age - lots of very young mothers also do things with their kids (and probably in life more generally) only because that is what their mums did IME...

SDTG not STD!!!! That would have been an odd username choice!

Schwab, I disagree with the 'until asked to move by a person who has priority'. No. That is rude and selfish.

If non-priority passengers want to sit in the priority seats, it should be 'until a person who has priority gets on'. At which point they need to get up and vacate the seat got that passenger.

(Visibly) disabled, elderly and pregnant passengers should not have to ask.

*for that passenger (not 'got')

KoalaDownUnder yes, sorry, I was addressing the issue of not knowing who is and is not "less able to stand" - I feel as if my sentences are becoming unwieldy typing out all the possibilities...

Clearly a priority seat should be given up if it is obvious that somebody getting on is heavily pregnant, carrying an infant, elderly and frail or has a visible disability/ indication of disability like a walking aid.

I was responding to the "how would you know they are not less able to stand" posts - how indeed? If the disability is invisible then it is the reality of real life that nobody will know they need the seat unless they ask, and shot of jumping up out of the seat on the full, packed bus everytime anyone gets on and offering the seat to every youngish, healthy looking person just in case they might have a reason to take priority, the only way to know somebody has a priority of some not immediately obvious category is if they ask for the seat.