To 'confront' this man when he asked for the priority seat on the bus

[YoJesse]

Me and Ds 3 were on a really packed bus, no seats left at all. I was standing and Ds was on one of the priority seats. The other 7 priority seats were taken up with what looked like young able bodied people and on Dad with a baby.

A man 50ish gets on, walks past all the other seats and says to me 'I'm disabled, can you move your son?' I got Ds up without questioning it but then I heard the Dad with the baby say to the man 'fucking hell, seriously mate?' This got me thinking that maybe it was a bit unfair so I tapped him on the shoulder and said 'as you can see I'm happy to give up the seat for you but as you can see there are lots of young, able looking people on the other priority seats, don't you think you should of asked them not my son?' He then goes off on one say ' I'm disabled, your son should be sitting in here in the first place etc' so I said that he is less able to stand on a moving bus than most other people so maybe he is entitled to the seat. The man got all sweaty and angry and I felt really uncomfortable so I got off.

Was I unreasonable to confront him?

Knowing Samcro personally she's got a lot to be proud of. Being a great mate who never minds me poncing the odd cigarette, being a wonderful support to other parents who have kids with disabilities who are where she was a few years ago and actually having raised a couple of pretty awesome kids.

BigChocFrenzy puts it well.

I think where the thread falls apart is where people started claiming children should give seats to any adult, and that 3 year olds are no more vulnerable standing up on moving buses and trains than adults without disabilities. This has made the thread a bit extreme and it can read as anti child/ mother because of the idea children have less right to a seat than any and all adults, possibly unless they are on a parent's lap.

There was, as some people have said, no need for the polarisation.

'There's was once a thread on mumsnet and when a group of people argued their common point they were being "aggressive" and when a poster argued a different stance they were only "expressing a view". '

Name calling is aggressive.

That's what made me post on here again today.

To challenge that.

Views from OP's (mums') perspective get quickly shut down.

In other words she's got one of those things called 'a life' where she doesn't have to sit on here trying to make other people's lives more difficult.

candy due to kind compassionate people we encouraged the rest of the day was lovely thankfully although it had its moments like any day out does!

I do wonder if some people appreciate how tough it is to get out the house when you are disabled/a parents or cater of someone with a disability. Even a simple trip takes planning for every eventuality and panic that something unexpected will happen.

I am a mum inkanta

Ice reminds you of that several times i think

And now I really must go.

Hope that doesn't upset you again Bishop.

Oh.
Shame.

Don't let the door slam on your arse on the way out.

Wtf does *'disabilities' mean? Why are there inverted commas around the word disabilities.

I am a person who just happens to be disabled. I am a mother and a wife who happens to be disabled. I was once the mother of small children and I was disabled too.

Very often on these threads you get posters like Inkanta who are like a dog with a bone and labour the point for a bit, but they listen and educate themselves and backdown when they realise and take on board the difficulties that disabled people face. It's rare that they keep banging on and on and on. The saddest part of all this is Inkanta is likely a mother of a small child who is teaching that small child that people with disabilities don't matter, they don't take priority over the services that have been provided for them. Heck they should just bloody well stay at home!

Nice. [thank]

Name calling? By me? Where? I've missed that bit.

Yes exactly - it's not either/or.

I absolutely agree about the polarisation. I have defended the disability entitlement argument rather strongly because it is disproportionate.

Many people can identify or can remember their own struggle with a child in public transport.
It's more widely understood than the impact of disability on a person.

The pass thing for hidden disability/ overt disability/ patent/ elderly might solve a lot and made things clear - but getting people to abide by that is a new conundrum. I speak as a blue badge holder - it's not well policed.

My aim has been to increase awareness, address ignorant and absolutely not less disablist comments stand.

But yes, as I said many many posts ago - Help, not Confront. It's not Either/Or.

'Wtf does *'disabilities' mean? Why are there inverted commas around the word disabilities'

Have explained that up thread. Nothing weird or derogatory.

Now let me go

sirzy I am glad. When someone is kind or thoughtful or does something which makes the day go easier, it really lifts you doesn't it? Makes my day actually.
I really did try unthread to explain the daily struggle in detail but not sure how much that worked.

I told my son to stand up on a crowded tube on sat so an able bodied lady could sit down about 60 ish. It was the done thing when we were kids to respectfully give up your seat for someone older and I have passed this on to my son. I would always let a disabled person of frail person take my seat without question. Why are we such selfish people. On that tube everyone else was staring at their phone to avoid eye contact. I was a visitor so never use tube as a rule

Bloody hell its like The Terminator in here!

I'll be back!

;)

Vivkibee

"I told my son to stand up on a crowded tube on sat so an able bodied lady could sit down about 60 ish. It was the done thing when we were kids to respectfully give up your seat for someone older and I have passed this on to my son"

This attitude is what I think is actually (unintentionally) part of the problem, on this thread at least. This attitude is causing the polarisation, the idea that children should give way to everyone because Manners.

It is outdated nonsense if your child is young enough not to be able to hold on properly, and if he is a strapping pre-teen then you should mention that, and it was probably a vaguely nice thing to do but ambiguous - it could actually be quite offensive and ageist and sexist - really there is no need or reason to stand for another able bodied person (who has not asked you to), and no reason your son should stand for anyone you wouldn't stand for, at all.

Why?

Everyone should make was for those who are or seem to be more vulnerable than them, and if that ideal can't be achieved there is still no reason to apply a twisted logic that the more vulnerable (smaller children) should stand for the less vulnerable (healthy adults without disabilities who are not pregnant and have not asked for the seat) so their parents can preen about being Old Fashioned.

My 2 strapping sons (19&21) would always offer to stand for a 60yo woman, or man.

I posted upthread that DS1 and his mate recently stood up for some young children who were having difficulty standing on the bus only for their parents to sit down!

I think there's plenty of space between "children should always and everywhere give up their seats to adults because Old Fashioned Manners" and "children aren't really that much more vulnerable than adults in this situation", though. And I think it is a fairly key part of the differences of opinion here, because it informs whether you think a child of X age is basically entitled to a priority seat or not.

I take your points about the different experiences of being knocked about on a bus at 1m tall, compared to 1.6m tall. It obviously is more than just balance. I want to be really clear that I'm not saying a 3yo should be randomly standing up if it's avoidable. But I just don't think 3yos are people one needs to give up their seats to, or people who should be exempt from giving up their own seat (esp a priority seat) to someone who needs it more than them. Id be a bit if the man in question had asked the father holding his baby, or a pregnant woman, or an elderly person, or someone with a visible disability, to stand so he could sit.

There is a whole other question around whether a child of the same age, seated on an adult's lap, would be expected to give up their seat to a disabled person. I suspect not. I'm sometimes mindful of this when travelling with DS - instinctively I'd usually be happier to stand and let him sit alone, if the bus/train gets busier during our journey, than to take him onto my lap; but somehow that seems like the incorrect solution, etiquette-wise.

Candy - you just don't know when to stop!

You mean she hasn't stopped when you demanded it, Inkanta? Why should she?

It got mean.

Yes, it was quite mean for some posters to claim that able-bodied children should have priority for seats on public transport ahead of disabled people.

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne et al; now people actually believe that when you become disabled you get a pass or card to carry? Or get free bus travel?

No you dont.
And in my town the seats are specifically for the disabled and elderly.

EveryoneElsie on certain carriers you can apply for a pass - the Gatwick express is one train route that has the system, I posted a link upthread. You don't get it by magic, you apply for it, and those with children under 3 and pregnant women are eligable too. I don't "believe" that, I know it.

TheFairyCaravan those parents were arses to sit in the seats vacated for their own small children to sit in, that goes without saying, and your son and his mate were very decent.

That's it though - it is human decency to stand for somebody more vulnerable than you, and fucked up twisted Manners for a parent to tell a smaller child to stand and take their chances so a healthy adult without disabilities can occupy their seat - it smacks of caring more about What People Think than about the child's welfare, and for a parent to tell a small child to stand for a healthy not elderly adult without disabilities is pretty much just Loud Parenting...

If the child is old enough to hang on properly and be at no less risk than a petite adult in the case of being thrown forward or fallen onto by adults in the case of emergency braking (which depends on physical size and development not a precise age) then meh - its still nothing to preen about, there is no reason at all why a child should be any more likely than their parent to stand for a youngish adult without disabilities, who has not asked for a seat.