To think there aren't enough decent men to go round?

[elementofsurprise]

I am sick of men - haven't had a realtionship for ages, so it's not caused by any particular one, just a general observation of the crap specimens the patriarchy has produced.

Was hit on yet again last night by a man who seemed perfectly nice and intelligent and polite to start with but got weirdly pressuring and controlling when I tried to politely decline. Is it so impossible for men to actually be pleasant and get to know someone? Must they always think with their dicks? (Wasn't out partying btw!)

And the ones that appear to be pleasant functional human beings turn into childish selfish assholes after a while - is there a way to avoid this? Because being friends for months/years first (so you think you know them) just seems to lead to a situation which is a prolonged 'chase' for them and they don't want you once they have you... My last boyfriend treats his female friends far, far better than he treated me.

I am 30 and worried I will never have a partner, because the cliche appears to be true - "all the good ones are taken"! And there seems to be more nice, normal, considerate etc etc women around than men. Sadly I am coming to the conclusion that this isn't just perception, but due to societal expctations, meaning men are just more likely to be overgrown children/inconsiderate/selfish/poor lifestyle/alcholic/poor hygeine/other massive red flag etc.

Sigh.

A guy can be nice to his friends but a total asshole in a relationship.

Basically, the few good ones are mostly taken and have a wife and a lover/girlfriend.

I think more men have become very entitled, and that too much choice is not always great for society. Men have women lining up for them via social media, online dating, can read blogs and tell which women may as well have "victim" written on their forehead - Im not saying that to disrespect women, just that there are many places where women seem to gush at a single man's every utterance or compete for male attention. That kind of thing can make your average arsehole over rate himself, not even try when it comes to courting a woman

There are billions of people in this world, somebody for everybody. If a woman always does the same things, stays in hometown, doesn't go out much, doesn't expand social circle then not much is likely to change. I suppose its a case of getting out of the comfort zone

I don't have much faith in online dating, I know of too many men who treat that as a revolving door, Im in my 50s so know a few who say they like their own space, don't fancy being married again, and are just plain ignorant and controlling in many ways..but they'll string women along for sex tho. I do think its best for women who can develop a thick skin be completely ruthless re. red flags and move on without delay, dont put all eggs in 1 basket, and persevere.

OH is a good man - Im not going to call him wonderful, or brilliant , or marvellous, or perfect - rare is the person I think worthy of all that saint status , but he'll do. We have our ups and downs at times but thats life, we respect each other, aren't unkind to each other, and it works

I also don't think its necessarily true that women who meet bad men, are always doing something that attracts them.. Some people are just cruel, unkind, consumate liars and fully prepared to string women along to get what they want. I dated a guy a long while ago now, for 6 years. I met his parents, grown up DCs, got on well with his siblings, knew most of his mates, and was friendly with him for a year before we dated. Biggest bastard ever, turned out he'd been cheating with his work colleague for years, even before he met me he had the "work wife" theyd only ever meet up daytime, whilst I was at work they were in her house.

I think women meet good men later nowadays - according to a mate, you've got to be losing teeth & hair before you meet Mr Wonderful..

A really lovely gorgeous friend (John)of mine 35 years old, was in a long term relationship during most of his twenties with a lovely woman (Kate), when he met Kate she was already deteriorating health wise from something she was born with(deliberately being vague) she died when she was 28 (about seven years ago).

He was sat at a group get together(local conservation group) in a local pub having a meal, when a some of the group were chatting to some other people they all knew , one of the women was on about there being no men available locally, John's friend said what about John, and she very unkindly said 'Naa lives at home still"

John is a farmer, he lives in a very nice barn conversation(he built himself) , his parents live in the farm house and help out around the farm, and with the holiday lets.

He's one of the most accomplished fun people I know , but apparently it's a major red flag to be in a situation where you have parents nearby.

• names changed

I honestly do think it's about compromise. And learning that 'perfection' is a Hollywood myth.

I think that a lot of women want perfection in a man: and if you are still single by the time you get to mid-30's you start to say OK, I can cope if he's not 6'2, eyes of blue. 5'8 and a bit portly is fine.

Likewise I think men want perfection in a woman: but men do have longer to reproduce than women which is a massive factor in women wanting to 'settle down'"

Also, a big factor, women are more attractive in their 20's. Men are more attractive in their 30's, 40' even 50's. They are usually more confident and successful in their career (this is where arrogance comes in)

Men will compromise less in their 20's than in their 40's - with women it's the opposite.

SohowdoIdothis

See, some men can't do right for doing bloody wrong. He's farmer FFS!

Yes, a lot of men are idiots but I think situation and context is very important.

My (ex) lived at home with his mother and she used to massage his feet after breakfast - now that is a red flag!

I decided a long time ago that beyond a certain age, all the nice guys are hooked up with someone and what's left are the toerags. Bloody depressing.

I have friends (well, friends of friends actually) who are dating, in their mid-40's.

The lengths (and risks) I'd say that these women put themselves through to get serious with someone is incredible.

One FOAF met a guy OLD. He was just out of a LTR. She asked him to move in with her (and her two teenage daughters) after two weeks.

He ran for the hills (unsurprisingly).

I think YANBU and I say that as someone who finally snagged a good egg at a fairly ripe old age.

I have dated some utter scumbags - the man who admitted he had a live-in pregnant girlfriend just after the first time we DTD. The man who gave me an ultimatum that I had to "give him a child" within 1 year, coincidentally just after I had been offered my dream job earning 3 times more than him The man who refused to travel anywhere in my car because it was "ridiculous". The man who dumped me because "you're not the kind of woman that anyone would dream of ending up with". Oh and the OLD date that never happened because he saw me park up my car and then just drove off without a word. I have the hide of a rhino after those treasures

Then along came DH and after a long period of self sabotage in which I waited for him to turn into a knobhead - I married him. He also does most of the housework and refuses to let me iron. (To be fair, my ironing is hilariously bad).

I used to wonder if it was because he was from forrin land and only British men were "frogs" but actually I think it's just 99% luck and 1% tenacity.

I really don't think women are more attractive in their twenties though. In your thirties and forties you generally wear better clothes, have better haircuts and generally have much more of an idea of what suits you. You are also probably a lot more confident and interesting, with more of a career and a better sense of who you are as a person. In short, I think that everything that makes men "more attractive" as they get older applies equally to women too!

Isn't the issue about what men generally value? And that is really what is being debated on here - that many men don't seem to value the same things in a partner as women do. Actually I think most women are prepared to "compromise" on looks and youth (though I don't really see it as a compromise because I have never been attracted to male model types anyway). But we value good character, friendship, kindness and self confidence. The perception that there is a lack of good men is generally a reflection of the lack of these character traits rather than a perception that there are not enough wealthy, gorgeous, successful men to go around.

I don't think it is really good enough to accept that this is just how men are. I think that it is a reflection of our society, and in particular a reflection that many men in their thirties and forties now have not grown up with the same ideas of what a woman should aspire to as women of the same age have.

I don't know.. I find it all quite depressing. I also agree that many of the "nice guy" friends people are referring to might be absolutely terrible in relationships. There is a great Amy Schumer sketch that sums up my experience whenever people talk about nice guys not getting a look in:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=e8teRxOSNHs

The "nice guys" I know are always the ones who get really weird when they feel rejected or "led on"!

I also take great issue with comments like this "I really want to debunk the myth that all men are bastards. They simply aren't. If you feel that all the men you meet are, it's because you are unconsciously sending out vibes to these men. They can spot a target a mile off."
Sorry, but that's really victim-blamey.

I've posted this before: there has been research that shows that women who've been in an abusive relationship once (through sheer bad luck) are more likely to have abusive relationships thereafter. Apparently what happens is that the standoffish vibe they give out when they encounter a new man deters the decent ones, while the arseholes either don't notice or don't care, so plough on with chatting them up. The more arseholes the women encounter the more wary they become, the warier they are the more likely to end up with another arsehole.

I think its ok for women to have certain things they won't compromise on, why not? Too often if women have certain wants, thats seen as requiring perfection. Better than just going for a man for the sake of it. eg the woman who doesn't want the farmer - I wouldn't want a man who lived in such close proximity to his parents either, even if he is a farmer, has money etc. I don't like that dynamic in a grown man. On the other hand I wouldn't want a man who wasn't financially stable, or didn't have a savings account. I wouldn't want risk of money worries on my mind when growing older, money causes more trouble than is admitted at times. I don't live in my parents pockets and whilst not brilliant with money Im not fickle with it either. and I do save. So Id want the same in a man.

A good friend of mine has been single for years. 53, handsome, good job, owns his flat, well educated. He doesn't want to settle down but would be happy with a FWB situation - the benefits being sex, because he doesn't want to put in the time and effort for a relationship and also equates relationship with having to spend money - and he's tight. He had a health scare last year spent some months in hospital. I don't think he's being realistic at all. But on the outside Id say he appears a good catch and a woman could be deemed picky for not going for him... when the truth is, they tend not to stay once they find out about the FWB thing.

I agree.

Sadly most of the men I know are like this (I worked in a male dominated industry)

The good ones are in the minority. It's years and years of misogyny in homes.

Thank fuck I bumped in to my lovely Dh.

Interesting thread. I'm mid-40's & very few of my friendship groups discuss happiness in relationships. Looking at things from the outside, there are a few who seem genuinely happy. I think we have expectations of marriage being happy, but for many of us that's not the case.

I know very few single friends at this age; those who are have been cheated on in marriages, all by men.

I was last single in my early 30's. It was hard enough meeting someone then (OLD hadn't taken off & I never met anyone in real life - female dominated profession). I imagine it's much harder now, even more so in your 40's.

I don't think I would even bother dating again if I was single now.

women are more attractive in their 20's. Men are more attractive in their 30's, 40' even 50's

Hahaha!
Personally I was at my absolute zenith of hotness at about 34. And as for men in their 40s and 50s being more attractive than men in their 20s..there's nothing inherently unattractive when a man gets older, but no. Honestly, no.
Young men are more attractive, on a purely sexual level. and they can still get it up

YoungGirl
The man who refused to travel anywhere in my car because it was "ridiculous" ... the OLD date that never happened because he saw me park up my car and then just drove off without a word.

Wow, I want to see the car now!

To those who are talking of compromise etc - I am not looking for Mr Perfect, I'm just sick of Mr. Violent, Mr. Controlling and Abusive, Mr. Alcoholic and Mr. Hygeine Issues (ugh imagining what these Mr. Men would look like!) I've got MORE picky as time's gone on, because I seem to attract abusive wankers!

Weird though - I used to get immature idiots (in early-mid 20's) who weren't ready for a serious relationship, then suddenly (it seemed) I am surrounded by men already in relationships (plus a few who will never grow up...) What happened? I've noticed I seem to always be the last girlfriend before they meet "the one" as well.

Apparently what happens is that the standoffish vibe they give out when they encounter a new man deters the decent ones, while the arseholes either don't notice or don't care, so plough on with chatting them up. The more arseholes the women encounter the more wary they become, the warier they are the more likely to end up with another arsehole.

Soz, but I think that's bollocks. In my experience, if a man wants you, he isn't put off by a bit of wariness, or "standoffishness" He won't be put off by sick in your hair, if he's into you.
Yes, there is a very small minority of women who always date the tosser, who always go with the abusive man etc etc ad infinitum, BUT the majority of relatively normal, attractive, sane women just trying to find a nice man in their 30's, 40s, 50s are repeatedly coming up against arseholes.
As a woman you just can't do right for doing wrong can you?
You're too open to men-you're an idiot putting your kids at risk. You're too wary-oh look, you've just scared off the delicate little flower who would possible have loved you If only you went so bitter and twisted.
It's all bullshit.
I'm actually having a blast at the moment, after a man broke my bloody heart last year, I'm dating two men simultaneously who both seem utterly lovely, and outwardly I'm totally open to it. But if one or both of them out to be fuckwits, I am NOT taking responsibility for that. I'm sick of women always blaming themselves, and each other.
Fuck that for a game of soldier.

I have one of the good ones;
Does 95% of housework, 75%of childcare and waits on me hand and foot.
Runs my bath,cooks my food, makes my coffees on demand. Generally devotes his life to making myself and our four children happy. (the eldest two aren't biologically his, although you'd never guess that from simple observation.
DP is also seven years my junior, great in bed, massive dick, knows how to use it.

How did I swing that one? I hear you ask, well as with most things pertaining to relationships it all boils down to compromise....

DP is a sahd so brings in no income, this necessitates me having to work full time in a thankfully comparatively well paid job.
I don't mind this at all. Although my mat leaves were cut short to 4 months each time which was a ball ache I have never had any inclination to stay at home and raise children. I appreciate that this scenario would be a deal breaker for lots of women.

DP is also not as conventionally attractive as I.
He's averagely attractive, of average height, which means he's an inch shorter than me, again a deal breaker for many women (I have never understood this) he's also gained a couple of stones and lost his six pack ( I'm not really arsed) since we first met.

So that's my two pennies worth for you;

Good men there are aplenty.

Solvent adonis' who are also domestic gods and proficient at child rearing whilst worshipping the ground you walk on are possibly in rather short supply.

Oh, right, cos we're all after solvent Adonis's. That's where we're going wrong. Gotcha.

to all those saying my husband is sharing caring considerate please tell me how much of the domestics you do and how much you do and be honest about it, because I'm very sceptical. i think most women are domestic servants.

My DP does 50% of the parenting when he's here (I work part time) and does all the cooking. I do all the cleaning unless it's a big clear out in which case he does it. He gets up earlier than me and looks after the girls because he's a morning person and I'm not.

Essentially we've fitted well together because there's things he's shit at that I'm better at and visa versa. Neither of us are traditionally gorgeous but he's definitely 'my type'. We met via online dating and I was pretty clear about who I wanted to be with. I met a couple of guys who were quite different in person but knew when I met current DP that it was him. He's not perfect but neither am I and we've realised the things that bother us about the other aren't bigger than the things we love.

Why so deliberately obtuse whenever?

The point isn't solvency/aesthetics or anything else, the point is that for a man to be good, he doesn't need to be perfect.

In not judging anybody else's priorities/preferred attributes in a partner.

I made my choices and they worked out well for me. Others can and undoubtedly will do as they wish.

But its not obtuse. It would be obtuse if I said that I and all my single friends, have a checklist for the man we are holding out for that included cool well paid job, lots of hair, six pack, fantastic in bed, does the ironing and buys our tampax, when clearly the evidence shows we are not going to find that in one man.
Women are constantly told to lower their expectations, fix men up, change their priorities, and yet men are told "you're just fine. Some woman will come along and appreciate you for what you are"
I just get sick of being told by married women that nice, single men over 35 are out there in their droves, and it's women who are either being too picky, or driving them away. It ain't so.

I think if I ever want a relationship in the future i'll have to settle. To be honest I think most women do that anyway.

I'd never presume to tell anybody to lower their expectations, just decide what's really important to them in a partner and then find the person with those attributes.

Neither myself nor DP are 35 yet, however from our single friends it's apparent that the women want tall good lookers with fabulous jobs and the men are rather less choosy.
I will concede that this may change in ten years or so but right now that's how it is.

I have single friends bemoaning their single/childless status who are unwilling to compromise on anything. They believe they are owed a perfect, emancipated specimen of metrosexual masculinity in an Audi A5 and no less will do.

It's not compromising to revise your unrealistic expectations. (Pre 35 in any case)