To think there aren't enough decent men to go round?

[elementofsurprise]

I am sick of men - haven't had a realtionship for ages, so it's not caused by any particular one, just a general observation of the crap specimens the patriarchy has produced.

Was hit on yet again last night by a man who seemed perfectly nice and intelligent and polite to start with but got weirdly pressuring and controlling when I tried to politely decline. Is it so impossible for men to actually be pleasant and get to know someone? Must they always think with their dicks? (Wasn't out partying btw!)

And the ones that appear to be pleasant functional human beings turn into childish selfish assholes after a while - is there a way to avoid this? Because being friends for months/years first (so you think you know them) just seems to lead to a situation which is a prolonged 'chase' for them and they don't want you once they have you... My last boyfriend treats his female friends far, far better than he treated me.

I am 30 and worried I will never have a partner, because the cliche appears to be true - "all the good ones are taken"! And there seems to be more nice, normal, considerate etc etc women around than men. Sadly I am coming to the conclusion that this isn't just perception, but due to societal expctations, meaning men are just more likely to be overgrown children/inconsiderate/selfish/poor lifestyle/alcholic/poor hygeine/other massive red flag etc.

Sigh.

That quirky dysfunctional band of aging single men and disgruntled divorcees.

Jesus, just listen to yourselves!

The thing I have realised though is that the short, bald, shy, needy, boring of jobbed are just as bad as the good looking ones in the end.

Fucking hypocrites. If men started talking about 'saggy titted' women, they'd be hell to pay on here.

I have a gorgeous OH who I've been with for 15 years now. I love him to bits and he makes me incredibly happy.

He does 50% of the cooking and laundry, 100% of the DIY, and pays for a cleaner (as we both like a cleaner house than we have the energy to create). He makes me laugh, he makes me think with intelligent conversation. He has stuck by me through thick and thin - when I was in the psych ward he visited me every day and brought me home cooked food in tupperware to save me from hospital food. He is brilliant with kids, fairly solid with money, and we share hobbies and interests and generally know each other inside out. He is great.

I know his ex-girlfriend (who we're still friends with) thinks he's a terrible man-child and has always felt she had a lucky escape with him. To be fair, he doesn't like 9-5 corporate office work (always employed, works in charity fundraising, but he can wear Hawaiian shirts into work there), has a lot of tattoos, loves video games and thinks that 'gardening' happens to other people.

She is married to a lovely chap who looks good in a suit and they have a gorgeous 4 bed detached house in the middle of nowhere with a huge garden. He and I live in the city centre, have a garden the size of a postage stamp, and both play XboX together.

We all have faults, but in my experience most people have virtues too. And most of my attached friends seem very happy because they have met someone who works for them.

MissAlabamaWhitman - I agree. I'm 38 if it helps.

There aren't enough slutty women to go around either.

MissAlabama from our single friends it's apparent that the women want tall good lookers with fabulous jobs ...

Did you actually read the OP?

Frankly I'd just like a man who's not abusive, controlling, knows how to do basic housekeeping and cooking, and who looks after themsleves to some basic level (ie.not eating junk takeaways every night or drinking heavily).

oldlaund youre joking i wish i had seen that his mum used to massage his feet as an adult lool Damn! my sis lived under a controlling domineering mil for many years she used to molly cuddle her sons to the point they didn't respect women.

Her bil used to demand my sister gets him a bowl and pitcher of water to wash his hands before eating then another bowl after eating. i never knew until i was invited for lunch i watched in horror, and so did my husband. this sort of thing is done in the villages in south asia where women are subservient or theres servants or no running water in the house. the kithen in this house was 3 large strides wtf was my sister doing. i don't understand why she'd adhere to his demands shes older, wiser raised in uk? it was a shock and bit funny to me at the same time.

she waits on her husband even though he is a very quiet guy he wouldn't say no to anything if she asked him to do it. she sets and serves him all meals even after beung work herself all day. she wont go out during meal times coz he wont be able to serve himself lool i think more than a decade under her witch of a mil has conditioned her well into the same backward beliefs, why else would she do it?

I know lots of single men who I would wager fit that exact description element

They aren't good enough for my single female friends though. (Not tall enough/rich enough/good looking enough/stylish enough/drives a Ford Focus/hasn't got a degree/child from previous relationship/receding harline )

Honestly, I could go on. And on. And on.

The men I know want an averagely attractive woman to give them the time of day instead of mooning over well heeled, good looking corporate wankers.

element You see when I was dating if a man fit into any of what you are saying they wouldn't make pass go. It's a numbers game IMO. The more you date the higher the chance of meeting someone suitable.

I dated a lot of men and only handful got past date #1. It's not about being picky. Any man who thought it acceptable to ask me to bed on the first date is nothing but trouble. A relationship with that sort of person isn't ever going to work it for me (good luck for those whom it does work out for!).

Also I dumped one guy because he got really drunk on our 3rd date. If a man ever dared to be abusive towards me he would be out on his hear right away.

Oh and a man I was dating being rude to waitstaff was an automatic reject.

goadygoatloool

Tabsicle I don't think your DP sounds like a man-child. To clarify, my idea of a man-child is like my ex, who would purposely and theatrically do something I'd asked him not to whilst laughing at me. (Along the lines of "could you take your muddy boots off please" type thing). He also refused to face up to huge debts, and got petulant and sneered at me if I pointed out when he was being unfair (eg. expecting me to agree with his views on everything, or listen to his rambling reminiscenes whilst I was never allowed to mention anything interesting I'd done.)

You are so lucky to have one who is supportive of MH issues too!

Supermum They pretend to be different at the start. Also, as mentioned, I'd known the last one for several years and he was/is totally different around his female friends than he was with me. They would be appalled if they had seen him - but obviously prior to that I was in the "friend" catergory and so also thought he was decent!

MissAlabamaWhitman

Very tongue in cheek, but taking your points in turn..

Not tall enough - I don't agree with this in real life though I agree it is a strange criteria that people apply to dating sites. Personally I have more of a 'tall' cut off because I feel too short next to anyone over 6' (and it is less fun in bed!)

rich enough - well, it slightly depends what you mean by "rich enough". I'll admit I want somebody solvent and who can keep up with my lifestyle to some extent. But I certainly don't expect somebody to earn as much as me - a quarter as much would be fine!

good looking enough - not always true in my experience. But hygiene and looking after yourself is important. And obviously sexual attraction plays a part, but I certainly don't expect (or even generally fancy) an Adonis. Averagely attractive is perfect!

stylish enough - well, depends on their style. I'll admit that I do need a boyfriend who knows how to dress at formal events. But style is something that I think reflects more how somebody feels about themselves and how much care they take. I don't expect a man who will spend much money on clothes, but I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting somebody to look out together and reasonably smart. If that is the problem your friends have then it is easily sorted!

drives a Ford Focus - personally I couldn't care less. I don't even drive!

hasn't got a degree - interesting. Intelligence is important to me, I'll admit, but I don't think that is necessarily indicated by a degree. However, an interest in their career is important to me I think (though I would also be happy with an intelligent man who wanted to be a SAHD)

child from previous relationship - this can be a stupid deal breaker, I agree. But some women just don't like children or don't feel they would be a good SM. And mostly I think this depends on the relationship they have with the child and the ex. If it is healthy then generally I think most women would be OK with this.

receding hairline - all depends on sexual attraction, doesn't it? Personally it doesn't bother me, but I do really dislike hairy chests and have struggled to fancy men with too much hair! But I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I think every woman goes through a phase of only attracting twats. I know I did before I met DH - I just had complete losers asking me out and I always wanted to run away. But also like other posters I did widen my search a little. I rejected DH when we first met but regretted that massively later on! Don't lower your standards, but do broaden the search. That should throw some more "decent" guys your way!

I genuinely don't recognise this idea that all women want the tall, Ken doll style corporate alpha male. Maybe because I grew up in a more alternative culture, I don't know.
For the angry man upthread who has inevitably found us, there's nothing wrong with being short, nerdy or bald.
I am currently dating a short one AND a bald one. (One of them doesn't even drive, let alone drive an Audi!)
But being less attractive doesn't automatically make.for a nicer man, just as having saggy tits doesn't make a woman a saint.
I could say, Ok, I'll go out with men who are objectively unattractive because they will be nicer to me, but it doesn't usually follow.
I dated men in my 20s who were, according to most people, punching above their weight. I was in love, so never felt that. I still got cheated on, still ended up in an abusive marriage.
Went out with a very handsome man with a good job who wanted to marry me, but I couldn't because I didn't love him.
What's inside matters most, but less attractive outsides don't always conceal good hearts.

I agree with you whenever

I don't think I suggested that unattractive men will treat you better or that short stature is positively correlated with overall beneficience.

I don't however suppose that refusing to consider a man as a potential mate (when he is to all intents and purposes a decent, intelligent, kind sort of chap) simply because he's two inches too short or drives a crap car is going to produce the best long term results.

In my experience single women are exponentially more entitled and shallow than single men when it comes to dating.

I don't think I suggested that unattractive men will treat you better or that short stature is positively correlated with overall beneficience

No, you didn't suggest that Alabama (I like the sound of your relationship set up btw!) but that phrase has made me think..

So much of this subject subtly blames women for not being able to attract good men, the usual implication that women are too "fussy". On the other hand you have women who have all these gorgeous male friends who are reasonably handsome, successful ,yet single - why? Why with all those attributes are they single? I don't buy it, at all. If women are to be looked on askance for not attracting good men then equally these men should be viewed in the same way

Live with me and know me is a very apt phrase but looks and status can blind women - not only from the stance of women who crave that, but from the other side of it which is, women who will sing a man's praises mostly based on these attributes, when as a friend not a partner they have absolutely no clue what he is like within a love relationship. Suffice to say, its likely not the case that he is a supreme catch but women don't tend to want him. Even if he says or hints that.

Im not saying women in comparison are near perfect, or don't have faults. Just that these single men shouldn't be viewed differently.

What's inside matters most, but less attractive outsides don't always conceal good hearts

Also agree with this. Physical attraction is important to me, but not all aspects of it. Im 5t 6 yet I am never attracted to tall men, my height or a little shorter always appeals to me. Of course there will be women who prefer tall men but its a myth that we all want the same thing. Also that an unattractive man is a safer bet than a goodlooking man. "Looks" dont work in that way

element it was a different car with the second guy! I have driven some right old bangers in my life but it would be an epic heap of shit that scared off 2 different men Unfortunately I think it was my face that scared off twat #2....

Anyhoo great thread OP

They aren't good enough for my single female friends though. (Not tall enough/rich enough/good looking enough/stylish enough/drives a Ford Focus/hasn't got a degree/child from previous relationship/receding hairline)

Recognize this amongst my friends. I also read a really interesting article about it recently that I can't bloody find now It basically said that, thanks to the women's movement, women are now raised to believe that they can achieve equality, financial security etc through hard work and dedication and effort. Which is great. So we apply that rationale to men and expect there to be a corresponding effort and reward thing. I.e. A complementary chap just waiting in the wings - because after all, we have a good job and take care of ourselves, and work hard - but really the qualities we aspire to and emulate as women are not necessarily those that all men look for in a partner.

I take issue with the idea of men as a reward or prize, but this rings true with me. I was out with some girlfriends the other night talking about some wayward on/off date and one said "I wouldn't put up with that at 29 so why should I put up with it at 40"? I get that, but I think it only applies if you are happy to remain single at 29, 40, 55 etc. You need a lot of luck because there are some rotters out there of both genders.

I really don't like this thread because if it was men about women I think we'd be appalled. Just because it's about men doesn't make it any more fair.

The only divorced couple I know, it was the woman who treated the man abysmally and then dumped him. My male friends who are single have also been in controlling/abusive relationships with women. It's not victim-blaming to say if you keep getting into the same kind of relationships with awful abusive men, there must be something about the kind of men you're attracted to on an unconscious level that aren't good for you. And I'd say exactly the same to men who kept meeting awful women. All men aren't bastards, just like all women aren't bitches.

I do hope you find your normal kind guy OP.

It is strange but this is exactly the same from the other side of the coin.

They believe they are owed a perfect, emancipated specimen of metrosexual masculinity in an Audi A5 and no less will do.

This is exactly what I don't like, a man like that would do nothing for me. I feel embarrassed by showyness I always see it as immature. My single friends and I all look out specifically for normal blokes (the type our other friends are married to), maybe its regional but where I am the single men I see are very interested in themselves I find it a turn off.

Tbh in think there are just as many shitty women as there are men.
My husband is not shitty, not perfect but then neither am I. He's kind, helpful, doing far more than his fair share of chores whilst I'm pregnant and is hardworking.
I know of at least 2 nice single men who can't meet someone because the women they've gone on dates with either get bored of their niceness or in the case of one use him for money.