AIBU to actually believe my mum, over my daughter?

[AdamsAppleAA]

Hi all, this just keeps playing around in my head and I'm not sure who I believe now.

I'm not too familiar with the site, so not sure how many responses I'd get, but I'll answer you all after my shower.

My daughter is 12. She has a long past of mental health disorders. She is on medication and has recently been released from an eating disorder clinic. She's doing well though.

My mother is an older woman and has a few heart conditions and is in and out of hospital. Last night, my daughter told me that she makes her feel uncomfortable and goes on to describe inappropriate touching. I was horrified.

I began to talk to her and she described things, etc. However, she said one of the main things was on a certain date when my mother was in hospital, so it was either a mix up, or a lie? I have been trying to juggle my time between the pair of them and there was an appointment I had to go to with my mum, but I also had a time to go and visit dd. I rearranged. I'm wondering if it stems from this?

Who would you believe? WWYD?

An unknown grandma has been vilified on here. I do not know the OP or her family but I do know the people I am talking about. Do you know if reporters are offered any protection? That is what I will need here. These things are hard enough, I lost my nerve because of this thread. Even if I do report what I saw can anyone be sure how information will be received? There is a lot more to this than meets the eye initially. I have to be here for those underage in my house. I think my first responsibility is to my own first relatives. Don't you think?

I'm not engaging with this. If you know a child is being harmed and you do not report it you are complicit in the harming of that child. I don't know what the legal situation is but morally it is crystal clear.

There are official persons who see this child and I don't know what they are doing. The fact that they seem to be doing nothing is my worry. Am I being over protective? I know that the official people are more experienced than me so what is going on or not. I don't know and that is the problem. What if I have it wrong? I have been threatened if anything gets out I have had it.
Purple - if you don't want to engage in things don't post!

Differentnameforthis
The reason people want the girl to be lying is because
A) The thought of a child being abused is dreadful, hence better that it didnt actually happen.
B) The thought of an old grandmother (or anyone in,fact) abusing their grandchild is just as dreadful.
Isnt it better that it was a lie and it never happened?
I hope if it is a lie the child is thoroughly spoken too firmly. MH issues or no excuse. she could do this again and again to other innocent people.
Also if it is true then of course the law will be dealing with GM accordingly.

Thebouquets - If you suspect/know a child is being abused, you report it. No ifs or buts. It's your responsibility to do the right thing, simple as that.

Velvet - I am sure we all hope the op's dd has not been abused. But that doesn't change the fact that taking it seriously and reporting it is the right decision.

This thread has really shocked me. MN is one place where I always assumed people would focus on safeguarding children as a priority. Some posters have shown me that isn't the case.

Womanwith
I think 100% of MN would agree on,safeguarding children.
I think the issue here is the fact the OP thinks it could be a lie and also the DD has MH issues which in some cases can affect and distort which is fact and fiction.

I would have thought that we should all be safe from all sorts of things. I am aware this is MUMSnet and the focus would be on the child but the grandma is still a MUM too. Don't Mums all have to be safe to be good and safe mums?

This has been a real eye opener. I had expected some investigation if a child known to me is in trouble but I did not think there would be such putting forward of the child above the other two females in the thread.
I said I would RETHINK what I am doing about the child I know. This means that I will be doing things from a different angle and not by the method first thought off yet some people have started going on about how I am complicit and lacking in morals. Not a chance! I was also a victim in what happened. My distress has been ignored and there are other things happening to me. Even in all this I am still going as far as I dare to keep the child safe.
To recap we have the vilification of the grandma in the OPs family and we have me being told it is my duty and I am complicit. Perhaps Mumsnet should look at Womens Aid website. We are all hopefully entitled to be free of any abuses. A look at Action on Elder abuse might be another good place to have a read.

Clearly they don't, velvet. Just look at the thread.

Safeguarding children involves taking seriously and reporting any concerns, or any disclosures a child may have made, in the appropriate way. Not to look for reasons to dismiss the child, and promptly tell the abuser.

No one has 'vilified' the grandma, bouquets. Not in the slightest.

Acknowledging that a disclosure should be taken seriously, and that anyone can be an abuser, is not the same as vilifying someone.

It was said that the child needs to be kept away from the grandma who it is claimed by the child is the abuser. I think One person said that the grandma should be kept away from the child for her safety. The mum of the girl has said that she has doubts about the truth of this. It is awful for the mum especially as she should not be allowing any abuse in either direction. What would the grandma think if she knew?
I know that having knowledge of something you question over and over in your mind is stressful. There were so many putting the safequarding of the child forward and very few in fact only one apart from me if I remember correctly saying that as an elderly woman with heart conditions the grandma also needs to be safeguarded too.
I wish I could tell you what is on my mind about the child I know and see what you think but I would be scared of what would be said about me on this forum. Therefore I don't feel that anyone but a child would be safeguarded. I have read a number of threads on Munsnet and not seen one that fits my experiences. This is the closest but still far away and I feel that the person who might be a victim herself is not felt to be worthy of safeguarding.

Seriously? The irony of a poster that is the main one saying the child is probably lying saying

"I think 100% of MN would agree on,safeguarding children."

Bouquets - if a child discloses abuse, surely it is common sense not to force them into contact with the person they say is the perpetrator?

Regardless of whether the disclosure is found to be true, you would keep them apart until it had been looked into by appropriate people. That's not vilifying anyone!

And the grandma shouldn't even be told about it unless/until the professionals consider it appropriate, so her illness is irrelevant.

I didn't put it that directly baconyum, but I totally agree.

How are things OP?

OP, you are not equipped to deal with this stuff, so don't. Pass it on to trained professionals. I wouldn't take sides or question your daughter too much, just love and support her and be open if she wants to tell you anything. Let her know there are trained people who are there to help her and listen to her. Don't tell your mum. She may not even have to know about it as others have said.

Your mum is old and frail and may be entirely innocent. Telling the authorities is not finding her guilty or acting like judge and jury. It is starting an investigation by people best qualified to do it. The outcome may mean granny is innocent and girl gets appropriate help or granny is guilty and you have believed your daughter and not totally damaged your relationship with her.

The alternative as I see it is by brushing it under the carpet there will always be an element of suspicion and potential damage to all of you.

TheBouquets, nobody is vilifying the grandmother.

Avoiding the Dd and Gm being together unsupervised protects everyone:

1. it protects the daughter as it shows her that her mother has her back and will prevent further abuse if it is indeed happening
2. It protects the GM if the allegations are misplaced and she has done nothing wrong, as no further accusations can be made against her if they are not left together unsupervised
3. It protects the mother's relationship with her daughter (and needs not damage her relationship with the GM, she doesn't need to mention any allegations, just prevent them from being together unsepervised), and will also show the authorities that she is ready to put measures in place to protect the daughter

What alternative course of action would you suggest?

In the OP's case I just wanted both vulnerable females given the same safeguarding. I did not feel that happened and it was scary to someone with worries. Not that I am a child abuser in any which way. In some eyes they saw me as the abused. I am to shocked to make a decision

Well done for speaking to the key worker, OP.

As well as your DD's medication, the anorexia itself could have caused hallucinations - due to ketosis (breakdown of body's proteins as a response to starvation) and electrolyte imbalance. So it is possible that your DD genuinely believes that your DM has abused her but is wrong. However it is of course very, very important that actual abuse is ruled out. Well done reporting - doing something so difficult and painful for your DD's sake

CaptainCrunch You are correct its not up to the victim to press charges, I meant (as I'm sure you knew) that OP should encourage her DD to report her GM to the police.

TheBoquets Yes I can see what you mean re my second paragraph, I am assuming that the GM is guilty. My opinion, based on the information the OP has given, is that she should believe her daughter and keep her DD and GM apart.

If this was my daughter and I was unsure who to believe then I would also keep them apart for the very eloquently put reasons MeWhoo has written.

Well done for getting professional advice OP.

Imnotbeinghorriblebut
You say you are 'assuming' the GM is guilty.
Never ever assume

It feels like some people are assuming that because the grandmother is frail, that it's less likely. I'm also wondering how this thread would have gone if it was a frail grandpa. Anyway, I am a social worker and constantly dealing with safeguarding referrals when an older person is abusive towards another person; often their family member or another resident in a care home. I'm talking quite serious physical assault and in some cases, sexual assualt. You'd be surprised at the strength of a physically frail person when they are riled up!

Zaryiah - Can I ask in the course of your work how many times have you dealt with an older person being abused by a younger member of the family? | am including in this generalisation older people men and women who served in WWII with medals etc who at a horribly weak time in their previous able life. I have seen quite a few sadly.

How I wish I could anonymously ask your views on my position.

I'm seeing increasing amounts of financial abuse. I've dealt with a lot of one-off instances of violence e.g. family members getting angry and lashing out but not a lot of sustained physical violence. I go through periods of lots of something, then nothing and then something else. At the moment, I'm constantly dealing with financial abuse cases. I had a spare of safeguarding issues in one care home when a few residents were very violent and kept lashing out. If you want to PM me, I can give some generic advice and pointers. You can change details if you want, just give me the general gist if it helps to talk through.

Just to reassure you, investigations under safeguarding adults procedures are much more streamlined under the new legislation. We don't dive head first into calling people "perpetrators" and "victims", calling the police and making allegations. We do take action but always with caution.