Sex trade and Jeremy Corbyn. So U?

[awfullyproper]

He said:
Let’s do things a bit differently and in a more civilised way,”
Surely decriminalisation is so imbalanced in favour of the people who run the 'industry' or patronise it. I cannot get beyond the casual attitude to the commodification of (mostly) women.
What do others think?

I think it harms all women if sex is seen as a service that can/should be bought and sold. Definitely agree with the Nordic decriminalisation idea, allow women to offer sex for sale but say it's illegal to actually enable the sale by buying it - same way you can offer yourself to be beaten up but no-one is allowed to accept.

Why shouldn't sexual services be sold?

Look at the acceptable model.... Go read the relationship board for lots of anecdotal evidence of how marriage and monogamy fucks over women.

How the patriarchy and a large part of society deals with marriage and monogamy (think the concepts are fine by themselves, just used badly by many) definitely also harms women imo and that's something that needs to change too, wouldn't argue that. Selling sex plays into that rather than stands apart from it - it encourages the idea sex isn't something a woman should always have control over (her part in it I mean), it's something that's up for a man to take total control over - in this case by paying off the woman to let him use her body how he decides but why not, if he doesn't want to pay, take it by force? It's a naturally very slippery slope in my eyes.

Other services that are up for sale, eg paying someone to clean your kitchen, are different as your paying for someone's labour, they still retain bodily autonomy - you can say you want your kitchen clean to X standard otherwise you don't pay, you're not allowed to dictate whether the cleaner does that standing up or sitting, with her left or right hand for example. Other services for sale have expectations and laws that we should all keep bodily autonomy, so why should we allow that autonomy to be sold, be it sex or anything else?

I do have autonomy in bookings. I can be picky about whom I see, what services I offer, and how I do them in the booking. I regularly assert myself in this way.

Those review sites like punternet, ukpunting, etc are full of the angry punters who resent the control we have. They wish it were the case that paying gave them control, and they're angry that it doesn't. They're not typical of punters g just proof that the misogynistic sorts can't even buy what they want.

I know they're not typical because I have terrible reviews slating me for being obnoxious and "up her own arse" yet I'm very busy, so obviously the men I see don't think that way. They respect me and appreciate the opportunity to purchase my services on my own terms.

It is harmful to all women that some women can be bought for sex.

Yes. It's part of the ideology that we name by the short hand of "rape culture."

I think we have a fundamental difference in opinion. I think that just because you can assert yourself doesn't mean the sex trade is set up that way, the sex trade on the whole thrives on the concept you can get exactly what you want regardless of anyone else's feelings if you're paying for it and I don't see any evidence that people, like you, who have a large degree of control over their work are in the majority. Even many of the 'choices' available to a prostitute, such as using a condom, often have to be enforced by someone else, such as a pimp or brothel owner.

If prostitutes having autonomy was a widely accepted idea why are there so many sites full of angry punters then? I'd say that smacks far more of frustration/disappointment in not receiving the 'norm' expected service than being denied their own whims. Surely if prostitutes setting their own terms was more of a given the sites would be full of whinging punters rather than angry ones, akin to an MN 'why can't I find a nanny who can cook proper lasagna' thread.

I agree wth the Nordic model too. I think the men who use women should be criminalised. Frankly many of these criminals already. Prostitution funds a host of other organised crime which harms our communities.

I don't think people are any better protected in Nevada or Germany. In fact creating a bigger market by decriminalisation would she an adverse effect.

And Do you want to live amongst it? I don't.

It's a naturally very slippery slope in my eyes.

it's strange that you want to avoid a slippery slope leading to women having their bodies controlled by others... by telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

I think that just because you can assert yourself doesn't mean the sex trade is set up that way,

I think the question is does the nordic model actually make women safer? And, is there some way to protect the vulnerable women while not telling Massive what she can do?

There definitely exists the idea that having money ought to get you want you want (and this is not an idea peculiar to the sex trade.)

But, that doesn't mean that it is so. And that doesn't mean that that is what every client wants. I believe that most clients (or at least lots of them - enough to keep myself and plenty of other ordinary-looking middle-aged women in good pay) honestly want to find a woman WHO WANTS TO DO WHAT THEY LIKE. So, if that means they want to find a busty woman who loves anal sex, then that's their right to go look for it. This is entirely different from saying, "Look, I've paid you and I expect anal." That's not how it works - we advertise the services we are happy to do. They seek out service providers who offer what they want. It all works out.

Those men aren't doing anything wrong. I am genuinely happy to serve them.

As for weakening the position of all women - well, women should be empowered to choose what they feel is best for them. The factors that disempower them are not within the sex industry, itself.

It would make no sense to outlaw marriage or staying home with the children simply because there are endless anecdotes of it ruining women's lives. Same goes for prostitution.

I have the right to have sex for whatever reason I want with another consenting adult. I can do it to get pregnant, or to express love, or to satisfy a fetish, or to pay my bills. That is my choice.

Here are some responses to the Home Affairs Committee Prostitution Inquiry. A variety of voices from those who wish to enact the Nordic Model and from sex workers. Pay particular attention to the prostitutes. Not all of them are priveleged "high class" escorts. (I realise that you all assume that I am "high class" because I work independently indoors but I assure you that I am not.)

"Ms N" is a Romanian who came to the UK at age 16 to work as a prostitute.

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/home-affairs-committee/inquiries/parliament-2015/prostitution/

I don't think a small group of of people expressing a 'right' to be a prodtitute or advocating the 'rights' of people to have anal sex or whatever have the monopoly on deciding how what works for our communities. There are more important things than the right to buy and sell sex.

yes, how dare we consider the real life stories and experiences of those that will be impacted by the changes made.

other small groups could include the disabled, vulnerable women and children, the elderly, ethnic minorities. we shouldn't listen to them when making changes to laws that impact them either

And you don't win Arguments by putting words in people's mouths.

Everyone's views are taken into account and based on evidence a decision is made.

I don't think there is any evidence that decriminalising prostitution makes communities safer. It creates a huge market.

I agree that purchasers of sex should be criminalised. I think support services should be put in place for prostitutes so that they can support themselves by other means.

Everyone's views are taken into account and based on evidence a decision is made.

no they shouldn't. When it comes to what adults do in private, it shouldn't.

In saudi arabia, everyone's view is taken into account regarding the freedoms of women. And what a lovely place it is.

I don't think there is any evidence that decriminalising prostitution makes communities safer. It creates a huge market.

does that make it less safe?

Everyone's views are taken into account and based on evidence a decision is made

What country is that in ? It's never been the case in the UK.

Hello, me again

Just swinging by to leave this here for reading, for anyone who's interested in educating themselves on the facts:

prostitutescollective.net/2015/02/04/press-release-sex-workers-protest-misinformation-biased-press-briefing/

MassiveStrumpet - Your posts are brilliant here

for anyone who's interested in educating themselves on the facts:

Probably not the best place then ...

Lurkinghusband - Haha! Tell me about it. I'm over on a similar thread in Feminism Chat repeatedly beating my head against a (hostile, barb-wire encrusted) brick wall.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2584788-Corbyn-Im-in-favour-of-decriminalising-the-sex-industry

It always comes down to the same thing in the end; sex worker safety being thrown under the bus for moral ideology and an insistence on refusing to listen to sex workers because we're seen as being 'beneath' other women. When you argue long enough with the anti-sex work brigade that fact becomes apparent very quickly.
It's a bit sickening.

Probably not the best place then

Well, as someone who's immediate reaction to the "Nordic model" was "that sounds like a good idea", I've found MassiveStrumpet's posts very illuminating.

Just because people aren't posting doesn't mean they aren't reading.

Just because people aren't posting doesn't mean they aren't reading

Like most people, I get on best with the posters who never post .

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/if-you-think-decriminalisation-will-make-prostitution-safe-look-germanys-mega

The German experiment didn’t go as planned: women (often migrants looking to score fast profits and get out of the country again) didn’t register for benefits, and the brothels that sprang up didn’t want to offer any contracts or risk any liability. Instead, brothel owners function more like landlords, charging the same cover fee for men to enter their premises and for women to work there, meaning a woman in prostitution won’t even start to make money till her second or third punter of the night.

it's strange that you want to avoid a slippery slope leading to women having their bodies controlled by others... by telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

It's not at all strange, slightly ironic perhaps but really not that difficult to accept - we/society/government tell people a lot of things they can't do whether they want to or not to avoid their own or someone else's freedom being affected. Massive actually brought up some perfect examples;

It would make no sense to outlaw marriage or staying home with the children simply because there are endless anecdotes of it ruining women's lives. Same goes for prostitution. (outlawing sex because some women's lives are ruined by it would be silly as it doesn't inherently contain that element but selling sex is the issue)

You can marry, broadly speaking, whoever you want for pretty much any reason you want - because you love them, because they have a nice face, because they like cats. Try marrying them because they're paying you however and you'll find there's laws against it, however much you might like to. Same for having children with someone - you can have kids for almost any reason with no hurdles at all (legally, unless it's underage or incest) but there's again some hefty laws about being paid to have kids, because we recognise some things should not be for sale. I believe sex is one of them (as far as actually enforcing this though I've already said I think the Nordic model is best).

I may decide having an arm chopped off would be lovely and ask someone to pay me to allow them to do it - I'm not allowed to though, not because that's a weird double standard but because we have to balance personal freedoms, the freedom to choose against freedom from harm in this case.

In saudi arabia, everyone's view is taken into account regarding the freedoms of women. And what a lovely place it is.

What a ridiculous argument. At least focus on the issues.

Ubik1 - I quite believe that quote you posted about Germany, where prostitution is legalised.

This is one of the reasons most sex workers and Amnesty support decriminalisation, and not the model Germany has been using.
The only country currently using full decriminalisation is New Zealand, and that appears to be going rather well for them so far.

prostitutescollective.net/2010/09/28/decriminalisation-of-prostitution-v-legalisation-2/

I think decriminalisation is already happening in some parts of the UK. I remember as a young woman, regularly walking through broomhall in Sheffield in daylight, past the prostitutes working there. It seemed to be a red light district of sorts. I know other cities are experimenting with this.

I suppose the question is - do we want brothels in residential areas?Do we want street prodtitution in our cities? With the current government slashing benefits do we want this to be a legitimate job? Would people apply like any other job?

Also - I have a problem wit the state sanctioning such a profound commodification of women's bodies. I have a problem with brothel owners making money out of this. I have problem with the state raising taxes from it.

I think legitimising it will cause the market to grow, I think more vulnerable women will see it as a viable option and society may well start to see it as a legitimate way of earning money too. In spite of the huge physical and emotional risks.