Sex trade and Jeremy Corbyn. So U?

[awfullyproper]

He said:
Let’s do things a bit differently and in a more civilised way,”
Surely decriminalisation is so imbalanced in favour of the people who run the 'industry' or patronise it. I cannot get beyond the casual attitude to the commodification of (mostly) women.
What do others think?

The "managed area" in Leeds seems to be primarily a response to residents' complaints and not specifically the safety of the women.

I think the safety of the women involved has to come ahead of fine ideals about no woman having to sell sex. Any politician who supports a pragmatic, evidence-based approach to making sex workers safer would get my support.

I don't know much about the situation in Nevada, but prostitutes in Australian brothels still report high rates of violence, overwhelmingly report being pressured into unprotected sex and face poor and unsanitary working conditions. Human trafficking from se asian countries is a huge problem, and those girls are expected to service up to 700 johns to work off their 'debt' to their traffickers before they get any pay at all for their work. The Australian system isn't working, and certainly hasn't done anything to keep prostituted women safer or remove the social stigma attached to sex work.

www.prostitutionetsociete.fr/IMG/pdf/2003bindelkellycriticalexaminationfourcountries.pdf

The whole thing high steaks. Purchasing isn't currently illegal anyway, it's more the people selling who are criminalised.

Thanks Bill.

Why does he want to decriminalise the purchase as well? Surely the Nordic model is a no brainer on this?

See I think the 'world's oldest profession' argument is a bit of a.cop out. Buying women for sex is not an 'inevitability' or something that cannot be changed. I think we should be putting all of our energies into creating a society where women aren't viewed as things to be 'bought'

Yes - this. Good post.

Highstakes,

I don't think the 'oldest profession' argument is a cop-out. I think it's a realistic acknowledgement that prostitution is, has always been, and in all probability always will be, a fact of life in human societies.

If we accept that is the case, then surely the best approach is decriminalisation, regulation, providing help and advice to sex workers and a zero-tolerance approach to exploitation.

Also, the emphasis on street prostitution is something of a red herring. The vast majority of the sex industry now takes place either via online channels such as AdultWork or in so-called 'massage parlours' to which most police forces turn a blind eye, as long as no-one is being abused, coerced or exploited on the premesis.

I agree with Highsteaks. We should not just shrug our shoulders and say it's inevitable. I support the nordic model which is decriminalisation of those selling sex and criminalisation of those paying for sex.

BonnieF
History teaches us that there will always be some people who are wiling to sell sex, and some who are prepared to buy it, so I support a pragmatic approach.

History also tells us that there will always those willing to murder. Doesn't mean it should be legal.

Buying women for sex is not an 'inevitability' or something that cannot be changed. I think we should be putting all of our energies into creating a society where women aren't viewed as things to be 'bought'

How long is that going to take? How many women are going to be murdered, raped, trafficked, tortured etc, etc in the mean time?

I am not prepared to see those women as worthwhile sacrifices for the principles of a bunch of women who live lives far removed from the reality of prostitution and probably can't even imagine how women get to the point of feeling it's their only option.

AntiHop, that still drives it underground and keeps it hidden, which ultimately compromises the safety of the women involved.

werewolfinladderedtights from your experience do you think the nordic model/criminalisation of the buyers (but not those selling sex) would keep women safe?

How long is that going to take? How many women are going to be murdered, raped, trafficked, tortured etc, etc in the mean time?

How will decriminalisation stop that though?

(Genuine question - I'm just learning and gaining an understanding about all this. )

Prostitutes are still raped, murdered, tortured etc in countries where the purchase of sex is completely legal. The numbers simply don't suggest that legalising prostitution makes prostitutes safer. In fact, it's proven to lead to an increase in human trafficking to feed the illegal brothels that spring up in legalised red light zones (see Germany, Australia, Amsterdam).

Stupid question I'm sure, but what's the difference between decriminalising sex work and legalising it?

I don't think the 'oldest profession' argument is a cop-out. I think it's a realistic acknowledgement that prostitution is, has always been, and in all probability always will be, a fact of life in human societies.

No. Prostitution is not something that comes out of 'human nature'. If that were the case, then women would routinely buy men for sex and treat them as appallingly as women (and some men) are treated by men who have bought their bodies. Women very very rarely pay men for sex and when they do the dynamic is entirely different anyway.

Prostitition is something that comes from patriarchy and misogyny. Two entirely social constructs which definitely can be changed. Prostituiton is the oldest profession because historically, women have been treated like total shite by men.

Shrugging shoulders and saying 'it has always been thus' is a cop out IMO. Having said that I also think that women need to be protected while we are working towards a 'better society' which is why I think I would favour criminalising the purchaser only.

I agree it should be decriminalised.... giving the women criminal records does nothing to help them and deters them from contacting the police if they have experienced violence or are in danger

Highsteaks,

I don't think an ideological approach is helpful, because I don't think it solves anything in the real world.

We should listen to sex workers themselves, who overwhelmingly support legalisation.

I don't want to see more women raped, stabbed, shot in the face with crossbows, hog tied and tortured, cut up, suffocated, stabbed, tortured. That to me is far more of a priority than 'intellectuals' and Harriet Harman sitting round cosy safe dinner party tables feeling smug they've made some kind of existential point about other women's bodies when that decision is being paid for by other women suffering extreme violence and degradation.

Great post, BillSykes.

I will add, though, that any legalisation efforts need to make women safer without enabling increased, newly legal exploitative and abusive workimg conditions to be set by brothel owners, as in the style of the German super-brothels.

We can learn from what's happened in Australia and Germany to create a better licensing system which works.

I thought this needed repeating -

Prostitution is not something that comes out of 'human nature'. If that were the case, then women would routinely buy men for sex and treat them as appallingly as women (and some men) are treated by men who have bought their bodies. Women very very rarely pay men for sex and when they do the dynamic is entirely different anyway.

Prostitition is something that comes from patriarchy and misogyny. Two entirely social constructs which definitely can be changed. Prostituiton is the oldest profession because historically, women have been treated like total shite by men.

Thomas, that brings us straight back to the other point. How are you going to solve that and how long is it going to take? And how many women who are not you are you prepared to sacrifice to death, rape and torture until you achieve your patriarchy free Utopia? You're asking other women to pay the price for your principles.

And I don't think the fact that women don't pay for sex proves it's a construct of the patriachy at all. Just that men and women feel differently about sex and normally that means that women can find no strings casual sex pretty easily for free if they want it but men can't.

Does decriminalisation really protect women though?
I agree that making procurement illegal rather than soliciting might be a step in the right direction, but full decriminalisation surely just leads to a free-for-all.

I agree with bill sykes. I think the primary concern of policy should be the safety of women, and a secondary concern should be the safety of the men. All other things should be distant third concern.

Does decriminalisation really protect women though?

that's a good question, and I think the debate is still open on that.

I think, however, the problem is that for some other concerns take priority.

Everything BillSykes says.
I couldn't put it any better.
Please carry on with your crusade against misogyny and maybe in a few decades we will have curbed the demand for sex workers but in the meantime, it is the welfare of the women participants that matters and that is why their views need to be listened to.
Look at the evidence and go with what works.
I have heard that one of the problems with legalised brothels is that men don't want to be identified going to them so women work outside the system in order to access these punters. They are thus still at risk from the safety in numbers justification for brothels.