Sex trade and Jeremy Corbyn. So U?

[awfullyproper]

He said:
Let’s do things a bit differently and in a more civilised way,”
Surely decriminalisation is so imbalanced in favour of the people who run the 'industry' or patronise it. I cannot get beyond the casual attitude to the commodification of (mostly) women.
What do others think?

I'm another prostitute who doesn't need rescuing.

I'm not a drug addict. I don't have a pimp. I work on my own, from a flat I rent specifically for work (and for which I claim a deduction on my business expenses.)

I'm not keen on the way Germany does things - it just opened up avenues for pimps - and the German government is one of the pimps as they charge the prostitutes a tax at the beginning of every work day. I don't need to be controlled in a brothel. I am capable of paying my own taxes and getting myself to the GUM clinic for testing. I'm an adult and I have autonomy over my own body.

I think brothels have their good points - not all women want to work alone or manage their own advertising and phones. I just don't think the chain-store versions of them in Germany are a great idea. If I ran the circus, there should be some limit on how big a brothel can be - not like those massive chains that generate millions in revenue for the owners, who charge the girls to work there.

As it is now, independent sex workers can operate on their own indoors perfectly legally. I like it that way. I do think it would be nice if we could share flats legally but to be honest, where I live in Northern England, the police don't care anyway.

HelenaDove you make a good point. The low wages paid to women in most menial jobs held traditionally by women are a scandal. We pay less than the minimum wage to (primarily) women to take care of our elderly. (Less than because most carers are paid maybe 7 pounds an hour but not for the time driving to different clients.)

Prostitution is the only menial job traditional to women that pays really well. (I get over 100 pounds an hour). But if there were no stigma or if it were "legalised" and set up as just another job for the unskilled, it would pay about as bad as carer work.

As it so happens, I would rather have sex with a stranger than bath or feed them - even if the pay were the same.

I'm another prostitute who doesn't need rescuing.

Good for you.

This isn't about you then.

I think the group that should be leading these discussions are sex workers not mums tbf !

Prostitution - the buying of women's bodies - is something that affects all women. It is part of a misogynistic society which reduces women simply to instruments for male pleasure & power: renting wombs or vaginas. Trying to control women's bodies via their fertility or their sexuality.

I think the adult, fully consenting women who choose to work as prostitutes are a completely different topic. I had never considered the mysogeny argument and had just always assumed that the reason for it being generally men who paid were down to the mechanics of sex and men being more able to split emotion from sex. From a liberal point of view people should be allowed to do what they want if it doesn't hurt others and it really is what they want.

However, street prostitution with young 'women' or girls going off with anyone in cars is horrific and I find it hard to believe that anyone does this from choice.

One thing that definitely should be introduced is a minimum age higher than 16 for any sex worker male or female. Anyone using a prostitute below the age of (21 I am still not comfortable with 18 but in reality 18 would be a start) faces prison. It is their responsibility to be sure and 'mistake' is no defence.

It isn't straightforward but blokes cruising around in cars to pick up desperate women (and men) for sex can't be right in this day and age.

With regards to the age of consent, currently adults in positions of trust are not able to have sex legally with under 18s. It would presumably be simple to extend that restriction to adults paying for sex.

Anyway, interesting to read the posts of women doing sex work. I would be against any model of partial decriminalisation that deters the "good" clients but not the predators. My ideals as a feminist are definitely trumped by the rights of sex workers not to get raped and murdered.

From a liberal point of view people should be allowed to do what they want if it doesn't hurt others and it really is what they want

You see, I think prostitution does hurt all women - it's part of a "rape culture" which attempts to police and control all women's bodies and their agency. And agency - the power to make & act on one's choices, be active agents of our own lives - is central to liberalism.

The problem with the liberal POV is that women don't operate on a level playing field of equality.

But fog it isn't just about women there are also men who sell sex (to other men).

I also think there is a fine line over what paying for sex actually means. What about women who go after men for their money? (Although presumably being mn people will pretend this never happens...) Is this situation about 'rape culture' or women actually using sex to exploit men?

I want to see whatever makes it easier for women to leave prostitution, safer for those still in it, and especially stops the trafficking of women. I am not sure myself that decriminalisation as an action in isolation would do this.

More funding for outreach projects to help women in this trade would be one start.

PalmerViolet it's about me when people talk about criminalising my clientele, who are doing nothing wrong.

It's also about me when people make broad assumptions about prostitutes as a whole.

I don’t think it's possible to get a representative sample of prostitutes.

I honestly don't know what percentage of prostitutes are unhappy and need help. But I think that the majority of "rescues" just annoy women trying to make a living.

I know women who work in legalised brothels. Does it bollocks make it safer.

There are a small number of prostitutes who say their life is fine, good for them. But I am not concerned about them. In the City I live in in England 99% of the women in prostitution take Class A drugs. Rapes and assaults are common.

In Leeds a woman was murdered whilst prostituting in a supposedly safe zone.

And places like Amsterdam that have legalised prostitution, all end up saying they made a mistake. Amsterdam became a haven for child prostitution, trafficking and criminal gangs.

And "clients" i.e. punters, are doing something wrong. Paying for sex is wrong.

Brazenhussy,

As you can tell by reading my previous comments in this thread, I agree with every word of your excellent post. You have completely demolished the arguments of the ideological feminists. Not that they wil take any notice of someone who actually knows what she is talking about....

I wish you well in your chosen profession.

Decriminalisation increases demand for sex services, which is great for the higher tier of prostitutes, who are secure and protected. It is a disaster for the rest, however. I work with two prostituted women. They are both disabled, both addicted to heroin, and have grown up in abusive households. One is in an abusive relationship with her drug dealer/pimp. They both hate their 'work', loath their punters, but feel completely helpless to do anything else. These women are not in sex work because it is empowering or a 'choice'...it is a means to survival, and one which has a devastating impact on their mental health and well being. I'm glad that some women are happy working within the sex industry, but they need to recognise that there experiences do not reflect the lived reality of the majority of prostituted women. I don't see that Johns are any different to any other man that coerces sex from women that would be otherwise willing to have sex with him, and we call those men rapists and sex abusers.

Cleaty where are you getting your numbers from?

Why do you think the number of relatively content prostitutes is small? Do you have any idea how many of us there are?

How do you know the percentage of prostitutes in your city are on class A drugs?

Edeline how would criminalising punters make those two women any better off?

Isn't the problem their addiction and their abusive relationships?

Reducing the numbers of unhappy hookers will benefit us happy hookers, so I'm all for support services for those who feel they have no alternatives.

Strumpet, the link between prostituted women and class a drug us is well documented.

^80-95% of women who are involved in street prostitution are problematic drug users. [May, T. and Hunter, G. (2006). Sex work and problem drug use in the UK: the links, problems and possible solutions. In R. Campbell and M. O'Neill (eds.). Sex work now. Cullompton: Willan]

87% of women in street-based prostitution use heroin. [Hester, M. and Westmarland, N. (2004). Tackling Street Prostitution: Towards an Holistic Approach, Home Office Research Study 279, London: Home Office.]

An Australian study of women involved in street-based prostitution found very high rates of drug use (83% heroin, but also cocaine, methamphetamine, cannabis and alcohol) and injecting, as well as risky use behaviours. They also found very high levels of mental health problems (e.g. 54% severe depressive symptoms), including suicidal thoughts (74%) and attempts (42%). [Roxburgh, A., Degenhardt, L., Copeland, J. and Larance, B. (2008). Drug Dependence and Associated Risks Among Female Street-Based Sex Workers in the Greater Sydney Area, Australia. Substance Use & Misuse, 43, 1202-1217.^

Yes, the women in my example have various challenges in their lives, but in my view, one of the major problems that they face is that a particular subset of men think that it is acceptable to exploit their personal difficulties and prior abuse in order to exploit them for sex that they would otherwise not be willing to give them. Criminalising johns makes it clear that this is not defendable or acceptable.

I will always listen to women like brazenhussy rather than women who have never been sex workers. It is foully patronising to think that a woman who has never been a sex worker knows better than a woman who has when it comes to what is best for sex workers.
Mainstream feminism does this a lot, sadly. Tells women who enjoy bdsm that they are being abused. Tells sex workers that their work must remain criminalised. Tells poly women that they are being used. Stop telling and start listening if you really want to support all women, ffs.

Edeline I would say that provides a pretty strong argument for a huge investment in drug rehabilitation services and possibly some form of drug legalisation (eg on prescription) but certainly not criminalising men who pay for sex.

Criminalising men who pay for sex wouldn't suddenly unaddict them from drugs or free them from an abusive relationship. In fact it would probably make them prepared to do even more desperate stuff for even less money and put themselves in more danger.

You see, I think prostitution does hurt all women - it's part of a "rape culture"

That's a very Victorian attitude. That some ephemerous women are somehow morally or ideologically harmed by the actions of these women therefore their actual physical safety should be sacrificed for other women's moral or ideological safety which is a nebulous concept which is hard to pin down or measure.

which attempts to police and control all women's bodies and their agency. And agency - the power to make & act on one's choices, be active agents of our own lives - is central to liberalism.

But if a woman wishes under her own agency to be a sex worker suddenly liberalism goes out of the window and the law needs to step in and stop them?

These women are not in sex work because it is empowering or a 'choice'...it is a means to survival, and one which has a devastating impact on their mental health and well being.

again, it begs the question. Will criminalising sex work or clients make them safer?

You can see the distinction between legalized and illegal drugs. The control governments have over the sale of alcohol sale and production is leaps and bounds ahead of its control over "controlled" substances.

the fact that there are prostitutes who are in terrible shape suggests helping those women, not criminalizing an activity no government has had any success in controlling.

but in my view, one of the major problems that they face is that a particular subset of men think that it is acceptable to exploit their personal difficulties and prior abuse in order to exploit them for sex that they would otherwise not be willing to give them. Criminalising johns makes it clear that this is not defendable or acceptable.

and you think this subset of men would stop because it would be illegal??

as everyone else seems to make up numbers, i will too, as an example. currently 10% of johns are horrible shitheads. 90% are like a previous poster, a sex worker posted, reasonable people paying for sex for various reasons.

making it criminal will lead to most of those 90% stopping, leaving the 10% of scumbags as the only customers- you think having 100% scumbags as clients will increase sex workers safety?

Criminalising johns makes it clear that this is not defendable or acceptable.

How so? Criminalising johns drives it underground. It's already illegal to assault or rape someone. if it was seen as a legitimate business, people would (hopefully) treat people with respect (as is done in most businesses most of the time).

There are punters who see street workers, but I don't know very much about them. I think some of them are motivated by price and don't care about the circumstances. I'm positive there are some who get off on the vulnerability of the women.

I am maybe straying from the usual sexworker-positive position when I say that those are not prostitutes with drug problems, but drug addicts with a prostitution problem. The drug addiction is the issue that needs addressing.

I don't think legal brothels will help those women. They're not going to be able to work in a brothel because they're too chaotic in lifestyle.

As for trafficking women, I'm not sure if everyone means the same thing by that term. Sex work involves a lot of economic migration. But I believe most of it is voluntary. I'm not sure if many of the Romanians working in Soho walkups are unhappy with their situation.

When I talked about my City, I was talking about all women in prostitution. That means brothels, those who get punters over the internet, as well as those who solicit in the street. It may not be the case in London where there are so called "high class escorts", but it is the case in my City that about 99% of those in prostitution are on class A drugs.

And many women in prostitution did not start out with a drug habit, but started taking drugs after getting into prostitution. They help to make an unbearable life, bearable.