Sex trade and Jeremy Corbyn. So U?

[awfullyproper]

He said:
Let’s do things a bit differently and in a more civilised way,”
Surely decriminalisation is so imbalanced in favour of the people who run the 'industry' or patronise it. I cannot get beyond the casual attitude to the commodification of (mostly) women.
What do others think?

And I don't think the fact that women don't pay for sex proves it's a construct of the patriachy at all. Just that men and women feel differently about sex and normally that means that women can find no strings casual sex pretty easily for free if they want it but men can't.

I have to say I completely disagree with this. A few minutes spent browsing the odious 'Punternet' will tell you it's not just about 'no strings sex' for maby of these men. In fact all the points you made above about prostitutes being raped, beaten and murdered tells you that.

As I said, I'm not being 'ideological' about it and waiting for it to disappear. But neither would I want prostitution to be completely decriminalised in this country either.

I think the idea that the pro total decriminalisation camp are pragmatic and the pro Nordic model are ideological is a completely false opposition. I am in favour of the Nordic model because despite all the claims, decriminalising punters and pimps hasn't made things better for women in prostitution in the countries where it has happened. It hasn't suddenly empowered very vulnerable women, it has empowered the people who are exploiting them.

countess i dont think that's what people are saying is it? Personally the Nordic model appeals more to my sense of natural justice (criminalise the punters not the sex workers) but fundamentally what's most important is the safety of the women concerned. I don't know enough about the evidence for complete decriminalisation to have a strong opinion in favour.

I doubt there is any ideal solution. And the opinions of sex workers themselves ought to carry a fair bit of weight in deciding on the "least worst" solution.

When polled, 80-85% of uk Johns said that laws crimilising the purchase of sex would stop them from using prositutes altogether. The only sure fire way to keep prostitutes safe is to get them out of the sex industry altogether - decreasing the demand for their services is the logical way forward in this.

I most certainly am not BillSykesDog and tbh I find your post, directed at me, pretty fucking offensive.

That still leaves 15-20% of men who pay for sex who say that they would continue to do so even if it became a criminal offence ...

It's a reasonable assumption that the most predatory punters are overrepresented in that 15-20%.

Plus, people do not always tell pollsters the truth anyway.

15%-20% is a hell of a lot less than 100% though. And it certainly makes the predatory punters a hell of a lot more visible than when they can hide behind the crowd of 'normal' johns.

It depends to what extent criminalising the punters drives the trade underground. That's something that it should be possible to determine, to a certain extent, from the experience of other countries.

While the sex trade is ugly and exploitative, punters who are likely to commit serious (as in disabling or life-threatening) attacks on women are probably in a minority. But if they are overrepresented in the 15-20% of punters who would buy sex even if this was illegal, you've succeeded in deterring a lot of unsavoury but not extremely dangerous punters, while driving the most dangerous ones underground.

The problem with the Nordic model is that there is still illegality involved and as such it's still underground. It's still risky. If the people who want to buy sex are concerned about being prosecuted they're only going to buy it in the places with the least monitoring - furthest from the police, where activity is least likely to be seen, reported, overlooked. That makes it much more dangerous for the women involved - if the men are further from the people who might catch them they are further from the people who might help women in danger, the women will be in the exact areas which would be the perfect hunting ground for those who wish to do the worst harm.

Whatever the problems with licences brothels it's highly unlikely people like the Suffolk Strangler, the crossbow guy, the Yorkshire Ripper, and all the killers who haven't been caught yet would have been able to cause the carnage they did in such environments.

And how do they become "visible"? By beating, raping and killing those who are so desperate that they will still be out there, putting themselves at risk.

You might not like it Thomas, but that's exactly where your thinking leads. If it doesn't please will you explain how you intend to stop that sort of thing in practice rather than just saying you believe we should pursue some sort of ideological ephemeral utopia with no idea of how?

I find people who just spout slogans about smashing the patriarchy but are quite happy to throw other women under a bus in the pursuit of some sort of ideological purity pretty darn offensive too.

Does anyone have any links to stats from different countries regarding safety of prostitutes?. It seems there are enough countries out there with different rules to be able to compare and contrast, rather than it all just being theoretical?

Would it be possible to decriminalise it completely over here without the whole.'super brothel' thing they have in Germany?

But even with legalised prostitution, illegal and unsafe prostitution occurs regardless, and attacks on those women continue, whether in legal brothels (from memory, it's something like 75% of legal German prostitutes report experiencing violence from punters) or outside of them. Decriminalisation does not keep them safe. Prostitutes are still being raped murdered in New Zealand, Germany, Australia, Amsterdam etc. But by deterring the less-threatening punters, the demand for services fall and the police can focus resources on the remaining johns.

UNAIDS reported The approach of criminalising the client has been shown to backfire on sex workers. In Sweden, sex workers who were unable to work indoors were left on the street with the most dangerous clients and little choice but to accept them

Some interesting criticism of the Nordic model here:

m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/4851224

I find people who just spout slogans about smashing the patriarchy but are quite happy to throw other women under a bus in the pursuit of some sort of ideological purity pretty darn offensive too.

Who said anything about throwing women under a bus? It was me who said that prostitution comes from patriarchy and not human nature and thomas agreed. I also said (and it seemed to be ignored) that i wasnt sure what was best, but that the Nordic model seemed a good solution, because complete decriminalisation would legitimse the sale of women. I said those things in the spirit of a grown up debate, ready to listen to other opinions and then you come in with your insulting 'women being thrown under buses and paying the price for principles' comments.

Fucking hell, what is it with people being so aggressive on here tonight?

Highsteaks

www.prostitutionetsociete.fr/IMG/pdf/2003bindelkellycriticalexaminationfourcountries.pdf

The above report compares laws, stats, crime figures etc between four countries - Australia, Sweden, Ireland and the Netherlands.

Thanks edeline

Child abuse, rape and murder have all also been around since the dawn of time. Should we be legalising those things too, since what's morally right can't possibly win?

I find it bizarre that a 15 year old who's been forced into prostitution is someone to be rescued from abuse, but the second that 15 year old has her 16th birthday the 'legalize it' lot would regard what's happening to her as her chosen career, with absolutely no consequence for those taking advantage of her lifetime of desperation.

Child abuse, rape and murder have all also been around since the dawn of time.

in an ideal situation, those would still be illegal. But in an ideal situation, prostitution could be legal.

It seems to me if it is safe and controlled, with ample help for those who want to leave it, it should be legal.

I find it bizarre that a 15 year old who's been forced into prostitution is someone to be rescued from abuse

it's bizarre because 16 is pretty young still. what if the bar was 21?

I think the group that should be leading these discussions are sex workers not mums tbf !

Not everyone here is a mum and believe it or not, some mums are sex workers.

Hello!
I’m a current sex worker (and step mum) and though I usually enjoy read mumsnet rather than contributing, I feel I have to say something here before I implode in exasperated fury.

There’s so much insulting, belittling, uninformed drivel in this thread already that I’m not entirely sure where to start, so I’m going to number what I want to say (for my own sake):

1.) I choose to sell sexual services. Please note, I do not sell my body (or any other part of myself). My body is still mine and, at the end of my working day, I merrily take it home with me to curl up in bed with my partner.
My body is not being ‘used’ by anyone but me. I repeat – I sell sexual services, not my body.
This distinction is extremely important and really needs to be hammered home to those outside of the sex industry.
Ideas about women ‘selling their bodies’ is exactly the kind of negative, socially ingrained, language used around sex work that lands sex workers with clients who feel like they own us in our entirety for their paid time, and that just isn’t the case.
We sell a physical and intimate service, not our bodies.

2.) I am not a drug user, I do not drink alcohol (been tee-total for years) and resent the insinuation that to be a sex worker involves some kind of substance abuse.

I enjoy sex immensely, I enjoy the money I earn, and I enjoy the freedom to set my own working hours or take holidays whenever I please.
I resent the idea that my chosen form of work could be taken from me (along with my autonomy over what I choose to do with my own body in the privacy of my own home) by a collection of uninformed, middle-class, moral crusaders who haven’t even bothered to listen to what the men and women working in this industry want or need, and are so far removed from the situation that they don’t even care what we feel about it anyway (in fact, our feelings seem to be brushed aside as an inconvenience).

These people, for their own ideological reasons, would see my safety reduced, my income removed and my autonomy squashed, and for what? So they can sleep well at night under the delusion that they’re being a good ‘feminist’?

3.) Not all clients are misogynistic, sleazy or harbouring a sense of entitlement. In fact, I’d go as far as saying I meet more men with sexual entitlement in my private life than I do in my working life.
Clients are as varied as any other random collection of men, few of them have much in common with each other, and their reasons for meeting with me are even more varied still.

Disabled clients, lonely single clients, experimental female clients, couples, ‘lads’ looking for no-strings fun, elderly widowers, carers of severely disabled spouses… the list is endless.
Often-times, the sex isn’t even the focus of a booking – the intimacy and closeness to another person is. My job is to make my client feel as amazing as possible, to build their self-esteem, distract them from their problems for an hour or two, to help them feel desired and attractive or simply have a laugh and some fun. It really isn’t as simple as a quick shag (though it can be that too sometimes!) and this really isn’t something you can understand unless you’ve visited an independent sex worker or worked as one yourself.
I hope me telling you now can help with that though…

4.) The Nordic model makes me very, very frightened. However, would it stop me from working in this industry? No, it would not.

Would the Nordic model make my job less safe?
Yes, of course it bloody would! And it takes a great deal of mental gymnastics (or deeply imbedded ideology against sex work) to come to any other conclusion.
Criminalising the clients would eliminate all the lovely, sweet men who come to visit me. None of them would continue to see me if it became illegal to do so.
However, do you really think criminalising the purchase of sex will stop someone from raping me? Robbing me? Assaulting me? Murdering me?
No, it wouldn’t. The men who could potentially do me harm would already be breaking the law by raping/robbing/assaulting/murdering me under our current laws around sex work, so why would an extra law stop them?
Criminalising the clients only removes the good, law-abiding and safe clients, leaving independent sex workers like me with the unlawful remainder.

Are you really willing to put my life at risk for your own moralistic ideology? Or take away my income? Or my right to decide what I do with my own body, behind closed doors and with both parties consenting?

5.) Trafficking is a red herring. We’ve been down this road several times already over the years and the fishing industry still beats the sex industry for the numbers of people trafficked into it.

6.) If sex work isn’t an industry, can I stop paying tax on my earnings please?

7.) What are my suggestions?
Full decriminalisation. I currently work alone in my own flat but would be significantly safer if I could legally work with another lady on the premises or with my own hired security.

I’d also like to see a huge change in the way we discuss sex work/sex workers. If people stop treating us as though we are inherent victims then perhaps we might stop becoming actual victims.

Well said, Brazenhussy.

Brazenhussy makes a strong argument. Someone will soon be along to accuse her of being part of the "pimp lobby."

I saw Niki Adams on Channel 4 news talking about this and she made some excellent points.

She pointed out that if the will was really there to address this then it would be the low wages of the jobs that mostly women do like care work etc that would be being addressed.

And she didnt mention this but i will .....they would also be addressing the lack of child maintenance being paid by absent fathers.

There was a poster on here a few years back called 22honey who had just come out of the industry and she claimed she had seen a rise in single parents doing it since 2010!