to think CM Options have been bloody useless here?

[VelvetSpoon]

I'm a single parent to 2 DC. I split with my Ex over 7.5 years ago. I never claimed anything - mainly because he's a complete arse who,concealed his income (all through a ltd co, he earned 5k a year,rest was dividends) and also because he said he'd rather be unemployed than pay me (he said this at mediation too, that I didn't deserve a penny!). I was / am lucky in that I don't need the money to live on.

Anyway, recently I was talking to my boyfriend about my house (Ex is still on mortgage - I've tried to buy him out but he won't respond to a text and I've not spoken to him for 5 years) and ge said why don't you just apply for maintenance, might piss him off enough to do something about the house? And if not you've got some money you can put aside for DC.

So I contacted them. Initial call where they explained how it worked, 30 mins. Second call where they set up the application 55 mins. Third call for clarification 15 mins.

Now I am not a chatter on the phone by any means. I am pretty clear and concise. So I wasn't prolonging the calls, that's how long they were because of the info requested, and the person updating their system etc.

So in all those 3 calls I explained my eldest child isn't my Exs. The position, as I informed them v clearly, is that DS1 has no contact with his bio dad. He's not on the birth cert, this is blank as to father's details. I have had no contact with him since before I knew I was pregnant, and no money from him. I met my Ex when DS was 18m, he has treated him as his since then, DS called him dad etc. He has never formally adopted him as we didn't think it necessary. I've always been v clear he should treat both DS and our DC together the same.

So I don't think that's complicated right?

On calls 2 and 3, I was asked if my Ex was on the birth cert. Well no, because I've said no father was named, and I've just told you we met when DS was 18m! Has he adopted him? No, I've already told you.

So today call no4. They can't claim for DS1 because he's not on the BC.

Would i like to make a claim against his dad? Or would I like to make a family arrangement with my Ex (despite me telling them on every call we don't speak, and he doesn't reply to other correspondence).

Is it too much to expect in 1.5 hours of calls I might get the right info, or for people to actually read the notes?

Apparently they're not proceeding with my application now, complete waste of time!

Fucks sake she don't sound bitter or twisted.
No one got anything to say about the piece of shit who's pays nothing for ops ds2?
Na just attack the op on her choice of men.
That was a right cunty post Whois.

When I seen there was a single mother posting I knew you would post Autumn. It's like you have some kinda fucking spidey sense for these threads.

At least your friends waited to find a decent man as opposed to....

And that's as bitchy as hell too Wine

I am not bitter at all.

Whois was digging me about my choice of fathers.

Yes neither is dad of the year. Had things been different, I'd have liked them to have had a dad like my boyfriend (who is a great dad to his DC). But I didn't meet anyone like that, and I didn't want to risk waiting, and never having DC. That's what I meant when I referenced my friends. They made a choice to wait, because that was right for them. It wouldn't have been for me - but in not waiting I knew my DC wouldn't ever have the best father(s). They also wouldn't have any family on my side, but I didn't think that was a reason not to have them.

If your DS1 is now 15, and your Ex wasn't in his life until he was 18months, and you haven't been with the guy for 8 years, then he was only 'dad' for 5.5 years... which is only a third of his life, and he was never his dad to start with.

I think it was right that he treated the DC the same whilst he was with you, but I don't think that it can be expected to continue when you separate. If you want maintenance for DS1 you need to chase his father, and your Ex for DS2. You are entitled to do both of these things and you don't have to justify making them contribute towards their children.

Morally he might have an obligation to pay, but he doesn't legally. CMS can only pursue legally obliged maintenance. So you can't claim for both children, but you can for your younger child. They aren't the best for explaining things.

The may have believed your ex had PR for DS1 which would be why there was a request. Also some people in his position would quite happily pay for both children. So them taking your claim and putting it to him is reasonable, it's just unfortunate that they can't make him pay for a child that isn't a blood child.

As he's not on your DS's birth certificate if he'd have denied paternity they would have done a blood test and then he'd have been obliged to pay, obviously that doesn't feature in your case.

They have to operate on very clear lines. It's hard enough for them getting maintenance out of some people who are the biological father, what test could they do for non-bio children? What happens if you say "he chose to be his Dad for x years?" and he says "nah, I just treated the kid the way I'd treat any child, but I never saw him as my son." How do they then decide which side is telling the truth and in which of those cases they pursue maintenance?

You should claim for your DS2. You and he are legally entitled to that money and it can be used to benefit the three of you. His morals, or lack thereof regarding DS1 say far more about him than it does anything else.

I think the reason the cm office kept getting it wrong, was because they couldn't quite believe what you were asking.
It's nonsense to expect, what was essentially a boyfriend (and I'm not being mean, in trying to say in their eyes that's what he was), to pay maintenance for a child who isn't his, 8 years after the split.

That's nonsense, and I expect the cm representatives couldn't quite get their head around it.

I would reapply just fir ds2.

It's not the point of the thread, but it's extraordinarily patronising to refer to DS2's dad as a boyfriend. We lived together for 8 years, bought a house (still own it together, of course). I think marriage is pretty pointless - I know many (now divorced) couples whose relationship/marriage lasted a lot less than half the time we were together, who never bought a home together...yet because I didn't have a piece of paper, he's just a boyfriend . I'm of the view that the duration of a live-in relationship is more an arbiter of it's seriousness than whether or not those involved bothered getting married.

FTR My parents were never married, they lived together for over 20 years until my mum died. By your reckoning, my dad was my mum's boyfriend. They pretended they were married to save me from any mean comments. Sad that even now people think being married (even if that marriage doesn't last, and is very brief) is somehow 'better'.

LalaLyra Nothing has been put to my Ex yet. The CMS have had no contact with him. They can't until I resubmit the application.

How is it patronising? You weren't married, therefore he wasn't your husband, or your DCs setp-father - he was your boyfriend, or partner if that's somehow more acceptable for you?

Seriously? You'd both refer to an adult cohabiting couple, sharing a child and co-owning a house as girlfriend/boyfriend?

What's wrong with 'partner'?

He was a partner who had no legal rights/responsibilities to your DS1, so no he shouldn't pay for him.

He's a dick to not pay maintenance for DS2, though.

AliceInUnderpants your rationale about a step parent not being a step parent if they aren't married is unnecessarily upsetting; is a father only a father if they are married to the mother?

My lovely husband had an 18 month old son when I met him and we all lived together for nearly 8 years before we married. The little boy's mother was not ever my husband's partner but sadly she died when he was just four months old. I'm the only mother he has known (although he knows the truth and we have photos of his mum in the house for him, see his grandparents regularly and so on). I taught him to read, tie his laces, took him to school on his first day, wiped his eyes, and nose, and arse!! Did I only become his step mother when he was nearly ten because that's when we got married?? Was he not mine and my husband's children's step brother until we were married?

This ex husband sounds like he has been a total twerp over money but please don't belittle the contribution of unmarried step parents. Marriage is lovely, but not a necessity for parenting.

is a father only a father if they are married to the mother?
Don't be fucking obtuse.

I'm not belittling the role or contribution of step parents, married or unmarried. I'm disputing the definition of step parent in a legal sense. A step parent is the spouse of the biological parent.

It isn't patronising, it isn't belittling, it isn't snarky. It's fucking factual.

I'm not sure that I'm the one being obtuse-I'm certainly not the one who feels the need to swear unnecessarily. No step parent in the world cares about legal definition-we love our children and, of course, will defend that.

It's also very difficult to make a reasoned and believable argument that you're not being snarky when that is written in an expletive ridden, snarky way.

No step parent in the world cares about legal definition

No, but the CMS do, and that's what this thread - and situation - is about.

Fuck.

I'm of the view that the duration of a live-in relationship is more an arbiter of it's seriousness than whether or not those involved bothered getting married.

And I'm sure most here agree with you. But as we're talking about what your ex is legally obliged to provide to your eldest, how serious the relationship was is neither here nor there. He was a boyfriend in the eyes of the law...just as valid a term as partner. Because you never married him, he wasn't a step parent in the legal sense (though I'm not sure that would have any sway in terms of maintenance) and because he never adopted your eldest, he isn't legally considered to be his father and so is not financially liable. People mean no offense by these terms.

As I asked earlier, have you thought of going back to your mediator to ask why they said you'd be able to claim maintenance for DS1 from your ex?

Boyfriend IS a patronising term.

It's why years ago people used to say common law spouse etc, before (life)partner came into use.

It's clear some people think a 5 minute marriage is somehow 'better' than not being married. That's bullshit. Anyone can get married, and divorce is so easy it means nothing. Married or divorced people aren't somehow better...and if I'd been married to my Ex I'd be in no different position vis a vis maintenance for DS1.

So whatever label you want to put on me and my former/present relationships, it's irrelevant to the issue I originally posted about, which was being given incorrect information by 3 separate individuals, and having my time wasted much like I'm doing now responding to certain comments on this thread

My deepest sympathy for your Tourette's.

You're right, that is what the post is about but your comment was upsetting and without any need. Many replies have pointed out the legal difference between parents and step parents (and actually isn't is academic? If you're not the natural parent and haven't adopted you wouldn't have to pay regardless of marriage) and done so with respect and kindness. All our children are brought up to ask themselves two questions when they say things: is it necessary? And Is it kind? I like to think it's good advice.

And actually, suggesting you have Tourette's is neither necessary nor kind so I apologise for that. But you take the point.

From what has been said above re courts being able to make an order requiring payment of maintenance in such circumstances, I expect that was what the mediator had in mind, ie she was expecting any such issue to be resolved in court and that therefore my Ex would be obligated to pay. Neither of us questioned the basic premise; my Ex's objection was that I didn't deserve the money, not that he had no obligation to pay for DS1 (and possibly then that I didn't deserve it for DS2).

It's by the by whether I could get the money via a court application because I have neither time, energy nor money to go down that route at present, especially as this was never about getting money out of my Ex, more to (hopefully) act as a catalyst to sort out the house issue, which is far more important to me and the DC.