To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

I think many women support TG rights because they feel it's akin to the oppression the gay community suffered and because it's the 'PC' thing to do.

So many (including me until recently) don't realise the impact on women it is having.

It feels like some men have found a fucking new way to oppress women. I can't accept a trans woman is the same as a a woman. They are not. And they are taking women's rights away.

As for the term 'cis', I fucking hate it. What other group would be expected to accept a term for their group that they didn't need or want?

No one. I am so fucking angry.

Katenka, I agree. And I believe most people who worry about the areas where trans rights and women's rights clash still support trans rights in general - to employment, to walk the streets without hassle etc.

It's interesting that it can be deemed transphobic to point out the issues for women, but it's never deemed womenphobic.

I pm'd about the fb group, fid

And (one up from commenting on articles!!) i have posted on my own wall, the worlds most passive aggressive and vague status about it

I can think of at least three fb friends who are of the "you big TERF" variety, so we'll see how this goes....

I think there is a widespread, if unstated, belief that women's rights in the West are a done deal. Hence if forced to choose between the rights of women and the rights of some other group claiming to be oppressed,social justice warriors will prioritise anything but women. Hence the strange antifeminist collusion between the Left and Islamism, and the merry abandon with which gender is replacing sex at the behest of a few female identifying males. This is happening with the collusion of many self-described feminists, who remain strangely silent whenever one of their other pet oppressed groups does anything that harms women.

Someone upthread posted about how 'all the good stuff' is no longer 'on the same side'. But it never was all 'on the same side'. The interests of oppressed groups don't automatically align. Why should they? But the lie that they do has been used for a long time by the New Left to claim the moral high ground and silence anyone with objections - rational or not - as bigots, 'other', on the wrong side of history.

Yes, I think so,manatee

I didn't get it Beyond

The only sport worth watching will be the coxless rowing

Ba-dom-tish

Found this article very informative.

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/02/are-you-now-or-have-you-ever-been-terf

Its not in my outbox either fid. Little worried i accidentally posted my real name on a thread now, but i'm sure someone would have told me!!

This is the fb group;

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

(Retrace your steps and check Beyond )

venusinscorpio
It's only women who get gaslighted like this. See Owen Jones, when someone asked him if he would be OK with performing cunnilingus on a trans man:

^firewomon.wordpress.com/2015/02/24/et-tu-owen-jones/^

Venus, what is Owen Jones's comment supposed to illustrate? I can see nothing wrong with what he said. A bizarre question for the author to ask anybody.

It's interesting that we hear so much from trans women and relatively little from trans men, isn't it?

I think one reason transmen seem to have a lower profile is that they aren't of much interest to women who perceive that their rights are being diminished by transwomen.

To answer the OP: I very much doubt that this is the end of women's athletics. If, when put into practice, the guidelines result in an uneven playing field, no doubt changes will be made. There's little joy to be had from events where people with vastly different abilities compete against each other. If that turned out to be the case, no doubt there will be objections from many quarters.

Has anybody commented on the fact that women with hyperandrogenism competing in the olympics will now be exempt from the upper limit of female testosterone levels (i.e. permitted a higher level of testerone than transwomen)? The previous ruling has been lifted and without scientific evidence of an unfair advantage, won't be reinstated.

what is Owen Jones's comment supposed to illustrate? I can see nothing wrong with what he said. A bizarre question for the author to ask anybody.

Owen was espousing the views of a trans activist who was known for talking about the "cotton ceiling" in the past and claiming that lesbians who don't want to date pre-op trans women are transphobic, hence the cunnilingus comment. Sauce for the goose etc but he decided to throw all his toys out of the pram and is still whining about all the nasty feminists who were horrid to him.

Mary Robinson beat me to it, but that is basically it. Lesbians who have said (politely) that they would not be okay with having sex with a basically male person who is "identifying as a woman" have been subjected to some unpleasant verbal attacks online.

Owen Jones has gone along with this but then acts all hurt and shocked when someone asks him the obvious question about cunnilingus and transmen.

Wow, a good article in the New Statesman link up there. Makes a nice change.

Lesbians who have said (politely) that they would not be okay with having sex with a basically male person who is "identifying as a woman" have been subjected to some unpleasant verbal attacks online.

This really bothers me. It's fucking awful.

Dh declared he is trans canine today. He feels he would be happier spending his days napping, taking long walks and having his belly rubbed. Instead of having to go to work. He is also changing his name to Fido and demands that everyone greets him with 'whose a good boy?'.

He is also entering crafts this year.

I am glad to see my usually laid back dh is as angry as me about this. He thinks it makes as much sense for him to claim to be trans canine as it does to say a trans woman is the same as a woman.

Sad that the author felt it necessary to write it under a pseudonym.

crufts

MaryRobinson
Owen Jones comment is supposed to illustrate that you are a big fat hypocrite to expect lesbians (or only "cisbians") to be sexually available to fellate transwomen whilst simultaneously being in high dudgeon that reciprocity requires him to be available to perform cunnilingus on Transmen.

So where did Owen Jones argue that? I'm struggling to find the evidence.

Have a look at his twitter feed from the time, fascicle, it's all over it. Struggle over.

It's not just sad but frankly shocking that people - like the author of that New Statesman article - who come out and say the truth, namely that transwomen are no more the same as women than cats can fly, feel they have to publish anonymously.

The same thing is in evidence among the many people (me included) who have said on this thread or on FB that they feel nervous about posting anything on social media that clearly states their position on this subject. People are afraid of Twitchhunts, doxxing and harassment, but also among their friends they are afraid of the social blowback they feel would result from being marked as a Bad Person on account of having Bad Views.

This state of affairs is a major part of the problem. No-one should feel afraid to say what they think, or we are heading into very troubling territory indeed.