To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

What is an anti-intersex activist?

not a clue!

Can you 'make a woman' with a male body and female hormones? I'd have thought there were still skeletal and other differences that would be significant.

Probably not within the scope of this thread, but it depends whether or not you believe that it is possible to "make someone into a woman" and how you would go about that. And that depends on whether you believe that women are distinct from men (as they are, according to Garlic's list) or if you think that women are basically the same, but castrated men, which starts getting a touch Freudian.

And god alone knows what an intersex activist is, but I REALLY hope it's not the obvious, because then that person looks like a bit of a cunt.

There hasn't been much in the way of intersex activism, but it's starting now because intersex people are pissed off with being hijacked for the trans* cause. They are not trans. (And neither are women with PCOS, thank you all the same!)

I think the phrase was anti intersex activist - pro-transwomen for women's sports still believe women athletes who turn out to be intersex should be disallowed if they have high testosterone ... because it gives them an unfair competitive advantage

Intersex activism from my quick google seems to mainly focus on leaving intersex babies how they are born. So anti-intersex activism would be reinforcing the strict 'gender binary'? But i missed where it was used (and my safari is buggered for searching) so have no idea in context

I think if you raised a male child as a girl, made sure he never saw or heard about female genitals and never told anyone he was male, gave him puberty blockers and female hormones and castrated him, and never ever let him find out what male and female genitals looked like, you could be said to have made a woman from a male body. Obviously all of that would be disgusting child abuse so it wouldn't be anything to advocate or aspire to.

Castrati do not grow up to look like women though.

They didn't get puberty blockers or female hormones.

Sorry, yes, you're quite right, as I said in my first post it is an anti-intersex activist.

beyond it's in the article about the Mtt runner who thinks that the reason they win isn't that they have a physical advantage over the women in their class, but that the women are just crap really. They are a pro-trans anti-intersex activist.

It could be as simple as the fact that intersex people tend to be a fair bit pissed off that the trans movement is trying to co-opt their troubles in order to explain a mental illness.

Obsidian presumably being castrated would be a pretty effective puberty blocker.

Yeah I guess so! It was just a thought experiment anyway

Castrati grew quite tall with long limbs which would give an advantage at sport. They also had long ribs which allowed for larger lungs, again this would give an advantage in sport.

Obsidian I'm taking my castrati expertise from a rather lurid Anne Rice novel so may not be entirely accurate to be honest.

To be fair anne Rice's castrati were totally sexy Anne Rice was responsible for my sexual awakening so probably not very realistic! More like varys from GoT probably

Obsidian

Sex is chromosomal. I don't believe that you can make a woman from a mans body. You can make a convincing imitation of

Actually I seem to remember (source is a half-remembered documentary on Handel's operas) that castrati were seen as very sexy indeed by society women of the time (and some of them did have relationships). The height was due to the fact that they didn't have the growth spurt of late adolescence. In normal puberty the surge in sex hormones causes first a growth spurt, then the growth points on the long bones in the limbs to fuse, so that people stop growing at their adult height. (I'm not sure why castrati did stop growing, though...)

FB group link again for anyone interested in further discussion. It's closed so no one can see your posts or that you're a member.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS

You need a large sports company to sponsor a women from birth competition. Not sure how that would work legally. Who makes the laws as to the testosterone levels in present competitons, is it lawyers or sports committees? If the Olympic committee draws up the rules, could the women from birth committee draw up theirs?
I was listening to a discussion about promoting girls/womens football - well that is going to be hugely changed from primary school on if many are regendered competitors.

Will all countries welcome trans competitors? How will it stand with those with strong religious leanings?

Re the castrati, i would imagine that they still show minor 'manliness' signs of male puberty as there is a minimal amount of testosterone produced by the adrenal gland? I wonder how different these levels are m vs f?

Oo, as this thread is nearly full now, here is the link for thread 2 again...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2558163-Continuation-thread-re-IOC-trans-policy-and-related-trans-issues?

(HQ, can you change the ITN link to thread two?)

(I've reported the message above to hq and asked them to change it :) )

I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't so easy for bad countries just to flood the completion with their second tier males, entire countries are banned for illegal drugs, now they have been given legal ones.