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To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

1000 replies

fidel1ne · 23/01/2016 21:38

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

OP posts:
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BeyondBootcampsAgain · 25/01/2016 12:57

Brilliant post, O!

EmpressOfTheVulvaCupcakes · 25/01/2016 13:00

Transmen might not be demanding acceptance from men, but they are objecting to the concept of pregnancy & maternity as women's issues: www.huffingtonpost.com/trevor-macdonald/transphobia-in-the-midwif_b_8131520.html

Funnily enough, it's once more women who are expected to move over and shut up.

Bambambini · 25/01/2016 13:00

I've been googling Gabrielle Ludwig and the amount of people totally behind this is astonishing - i just can't belive that they can't see how unfair this is or the bigger picture of where it is leading. That Ludwig herself thinks it's ok and is not ashamed or embarrassed at her advantage and of taking a young college womans place is such selfishness or total self denial.

QueenStromba · 25/01/2016 13:04

Ludwig got special treatment because they're trans too - they'd already played their maximum allowance of two years as a man.

mrsjskelton · 25/01/2016 13:07

I think it's a disgrace - they have the strength of a man hence why they don't complete together. What are women's rights for anyway?

Werksallhourz · 25/01/2016 13:09

After the New York legislation and now this, I believe that what we are seeing is a drive to abolish any equality legislation that has been established on the grounds of biological sex.

In short, biological sex, in legal and cultural terms, is being eradicated as a defining feature.

A large part of me thinks this is being done on purpose. Sorry, I know it sounds tinfoil hat, but there is no way that the people responsible for these changes in rules, regulations, policies and laws do not realise the damage these shifts will do to opportunities for biological women.

QueenStromba · 25/01/2016 13:25

I think that the problem is that most people, including women, hate women.

OTheHugeManatee · 25/01/2016 14:00

I'm inclined to agree with you Werks. I don't think it's exactly a conscious attempt to chip away at women's rights and spaces but unconsciously, I think the enthusiasm with which a lot of people seize on trans issues is because they think women need taking down a peg or two, and sense that trans is a good stalking-horse for doing just that.

What irony more delicious than a bunch of men in dresses, accusing women of having privilege! If I were a MRA I'd be right behind trans activism. Take that you whinging gashes, how do you like being on the back foot while someone uses their oppression as a stick to beat you with! Now you know what it feels like, etc etc etc.

Maryz · 25/01/2016 14:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Inertia · 25/01/2016 14:25

This is like manna from heaven for all the men who think women have got too big for their boots, what with all our 'equal rights' and everything. There would be all sorts of legal pitfalls if women were discriminated against by explicitly withdrawing the equal opportunities, rights and services that women are entitled to.

Instead, women are losing our rights because a particularly vociferous group have decided to redefine women as a subset of men. And not just any old subset, we are now a subset who had better shut the fuck up about our own biology, our own reproductive health, our own maternity-based rights - even our right to choose who to have sex with - because men who feel like women don't have those issues so talking about them is either triggering or irrelevant or transphobic.

And so those of us who have always considered ourselves feminists but never really got involved in campaigning begin to realise how far down the slope women's rights have slipped, and realise that actually we need to start adding our voices. But I'm terrified of the repercussions. I'm too frightened to speak out in real life -partly because women who do speak out are subjected to threats of violence and rape which seem to go unchallenged, but mainly because I have daughters, and I would genuinely fear for their safety.

Meanwhile, men-who-identify-as-transwomen are gaining access to refuges and assaulting women. Men-who-identify-as-transwomen are raping girls and women and then demanding access to women's prisons because they now feel like women (and don't want the same brutal treatment from other men that they are quite happy to dish out themselves, and of course the free access to vulnerable women is a bonus). And the statistics become utterly meaningless, because it's 'women' that commit the crimes.

And anyone who protests that actually women should have the right to be safe and choose their own sexual partners is called a bigot, or threatened with exactly the same sort of sexual violence that we're trying to raise awareness of - yet nobody seems to grasp the irony of men-who-identify-as-women who want access to women's safe spaces using the threat of male-perpetuated sexual violence to intimidate women who protest against men entering women's safe spaces.

How can groups of women act to protect ourselves and one another?

(The craziest thing is I've just had to go back and edit so as not to be accused of misgendering by calling a convicted rapist a man).

CallaLilli · 25/01/2016 14:25

I feel the need to link to Stonewall's Trans Advisory Group. In what fucking world is a man with a beard allowed to call himself a woman?

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2016 14:30

I hope you consider that your queries have been answered, fascicle.

sparechange · 25/01/2016 14:56

inertia
Your post is brilliant and moving and motivating. Thank you.

NickiFury · 25/01/2016 15:08

Great post inertia.

My fear is that it's too late. We've been shut down and silenced so effectively that great strides have been made and those who don't feel directly affected just seem to be totally apathetic. There seems to be an inability to accept that not all trans are hard done to potential victims that need propping up by the rest of us in their struggle. It's been romanticised to the max.

I want to link that New Statesman article on FB and Twitter with a comment and I will, just have to gear myself up to it and I resent that I feel that way. My motto in life has always been along the lines of if you're scared about saying or doing it but feel it's right then you probably should do or say it NOW. This is the first issue I have come across in years where I am really nervous about just diving in.

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2016 15:13

If the media portrayed this fairly, I don't personally believe we would be in this situation. People are not aware of what's going on. The situation is being misrepresented.

Quoteunquote · 25/01/2016 15:33

The diplomatic solution would be to have the events divided into XX and YX (gonosomes), everyone can provide a blood sample.

and a gender neutral category for anyone who doesn't want to use the XX or YX classification.(anyone can compete in if they don't want to compete under the XX/ YX

If the words we use to use for dividing the sexes have been redefined then we can simple use a classification that reflects the real differences between the participants.

Katenka · 25/01/2016 15:39

Can some attempt to explain why trans women feel the need to enter women's spaces?

Is it because they don't want to get changed near someone with a penis?

Or just that they claim to be women and should have the right to?

My question is is TW do not want to get canned near someone with a penis, why should women be ok with it?

If it's because they have the right? Why are my women's rights to private space being denied?

I think in a couple of generations people will look at what's happening now with horror and wonder how did society let this happen.

I spoke to my Sensei who believes that Fallon Fox will kill a woman in the ring and has promised to boycott any kick boxing or karate competition that tries to allow men who identify as women compete against men.

We have European and world champion females at our dojo. So it will have an impact. We will be trying to get other dojos on board.

It's essentially making girls unable to enter a fair competition, it's unsafe and will push girls out of the sport

VagueIdeas · 25/01/2016 15:43

Can some attempt to explain why trans women feel the need to enter women's spaces?

Or just that they claim to be women and should have the right to?

Exactly that.

QueenStromba · 25/01/2016 15:47

Mostly MTTs want to use women's facilities because it validates their womanhood. Given that MTTs have the same rate of offending as men and are generally attracted to women, some want be there to ogle and possibly attack women whereas some will be genuinely fearful of using the male facilities.

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2016 15:48

Yes, it validates their personal idea of themselves as women. Fuck all the women it makes uncomfortable or feel threatened or whose boundaries are ignored. Their feelings don't count.

rumbleinthrjungle · 25/01/2016 15:56

Unfortunately there is also discussion easily found online about tensions between lesbian groups and trans women where trans women feel strongly that they should have equal access to these lesbian women only spaces and tensions around lesbian women who have not been willing to see trans women as potential dates or sexual partners. These women would argue that they are simply not attracted to men: the gender change has not created a biological change. Some trans women have found this deeply rejecting and offensive since to them they are women and therefore should be equal to any other woman as a sexual partner.

A sticking point does seem to be how far should an uninvolved person be expected to go in changing their personal view points, needs and preferences to accommodate someone else's personal view of themselves? Particularly when that person is rejecting their own personal view of themselves as wrong and excluding. Its complicated territory.

rumbleinthrjungle · 25/01/2016 15:59

The social blowback they feel would result from being marked as a Bad Person on account of having Bad Views. This state of affairs is a major part of the problem. No-one should feel afraid to say what they think, or we are heading into very troubling territory indeed.

Indeed. There have been two petitions discussed on MN in the last fortnight where people have had to say they cannot front them or be involved as it would be a threat to their job/career to be publically known as holding 'unacceptable views'.

Inertia · 25/01/2016 16:05

To be honest the principle of biological male, biological female , not-defined-by-biological-sexual-characteristics could be applied to all spaces, not just sport: refuges, counselling groups, hospital wards, toilets, changing rooms.

That means that people who do not identify with their biological sex can choose to use a space where it is irrelevant, whereas those who wish to use the facilities appropriate for their biology can do so.

As a linked issue- what would happen to a TW being treated for (say) testicular cancer who refused to be treated on the male ward? Would the TW be moved to a women's ward , leading to the HCPs and any required equipment being forced to move? Conversely, what would happen to a TM being treated for (say) an ectopic pregancy- could the TM insist that all of the required scanning equipment be moved to a men's ward?

venusinscorpio · 25/01/2016 16:06

It's really not complicated at all that lesbians should not be required to consider biological men women when they do not believe that to be the case, and have sex with them when they are only attracted to women. Penis or no penis. However "rejecting or offensive" some trans women may find the fact that many people are unwilling to validate their personal view of them at a cost to themselves, that's really their problem, not anyone else's, don't you think?

I'm not sure why you feel there is any "sticking point". It's perfectly simple to me.

rumbleinthrjungle · 25/01/2016 16:06

Sorry, just realised I missed a couple of pages and am repeating already discussed ground. Blush

I'll be over here with my head in a bucket.

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