To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

I think Rachel Dolezal has more of a legit claim to 'feel black' than men have to 'feel female'!

But the trans community were very quick to distance themselves from it, probably because it exposed that the Emperor has no clothes on, not even a dress and false eyelashes.

I think she's crackers and it's impossible to change ethnicity venus but she was very eloquent about her delusion all the same

Any other body dysmorphia is treated as an illness.

It did, and it amused the hell out of me, because most people obviously couldn't see the difference, and transactivists didn't really have a cogent argument as to why it was.

Even people who view their limbs as inimical to them are finding sympathetic surgeons now Jidget. Mainly in the States, admittedly.

So fucking unethical to cut healthy body parts off people

I do wonder in twenty years time how many court cases there will be of medical negligence of transgenders who believe the medical profession and parents for allowing surgery when they where not in a fit state to agree.

Rachel Dolezal's self-identification as black seems as legitimate to me as a man self-identifying as a woman. It was interesting that the black community weren't prepared to entertain the suggestion, and no-one called them 'transracists'

Those East German women athletes looked every inch a MAN in looks and the way they ran. I suspected they were on the Testosterone all those years ago but now think they were also on anabolic steroids.

A video of them would be interesting but don't think any exist.

Put my name down too.

Agree that "cis" is extremely insidious - it implies that there is no difference between trans women and women, so we need a prefix for everyone to be clear

Hermione I see it as even worse than that, I see trans'women' taking ownership of the word 'women' with all it's associations, and turning real women into a subset of them

digerd Google Montreal 1976 pentathlon and you will find some videos and stills. Sorry can't link at the moment.

Also Google the 1976 East German swimming team. They sued their government for giving then steroids without their knowledge or consent

If anyone's interested, some of us have started a group to discuss how to raise awareness of this issue. This is the facebook link:

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

It's called "Women for women's sport".

Just looked at the fb group.
Will join.
This is such infuriating news.
How the hell did anyone think it makes sense, or is in any way reasonable?
It utterly beggars belief!

The world has gone transgender mad. They are another minority group we are scared of offending so everyone is being terribly politically correct and allowing them anything they want. There was a thread about Canada and school sports and school toilets and transecuals the othet day - basically saying you can decide which team to play for and which toilets to use.
It is madness- and will always be at the expense of women.

Why is all the trans stuff in the news about trans women or male to female. I have heard trans men but they seem to be a tiny minority of trans people and cause little controversy, or am I missing something

Women (transitioning to men) marching into the male world and telling men how to be men wouldn't really be tolerated, would it mud?

That was what I thought, but just dipping my toe into uncharted waters ( for me!)

Well, mud, I think it's because trans men are born and socialised as female, and therefore are used to not having a voice and feeling cowed and being a minority and not very visible in certain contexts.

Trans women, on the other hand, are born and socialised as male and are very much not accustomed to being without privilege and being denied access to spaces and not being listened to.

I haven't explained that very eloquently but you get the gist.

Sorry wasn't being sarcastic to you, I just get a bit acidic when I think about all the 'cis' stuff

They wouldn't dream of doing it, because they're biologically female and didn't grow up with male privilege, unlike trans women, and if they did men would just laugh at them. Because trans men are not a threat to men. And men do not believe they are men. It's only women who get gaslighted like this. See Owen Jones, when someone asked him if he would be OK with performing cunnilingus on a trans man:

firewomon.wordpress.com/2015/02/24/et-tu-owen-jones/

It's interesting that we hear so much from trans women and relatively little from trans men, isn't it?

Completely agree Fidel, I am learning a lot tonight. I find myself in a very strange position. All the good stuff used to be on one side, feminism, anti racism, gay rights. I used to think of trans people as another oppressed group to support and I suppose I still do but sport, prisons, abuse of feminists by trans activists Jenner, Germaine Greer ( who I love) lots of new ideas to consider. I think this issue is actually really reigniting my feminism but still got some very uneasy feelings. Don't want to line up with Clarkson ffs!

Oh tell me about it. I know exactly what you mean. it's complicated now.

"Mmm, given the prevalence of late transitioning, one could easily imagine that as well as the younger men transitioning for the peak of their career, there would be top level male athletes seeking to prolong their career through shifting down into women's sport."

There has already been discussion about precisely this for some time.

I've spent ages today reading various articles and blogs and ill be honest had my eyes opened. I guess my feelings on trans rights are just like mud in that I just always saw them as another oppressed group that I supported but I never really understood the implications on women's rights.
I read the blog venus linked to and was actually angry. I don't know what else to say except thank you everyone who has contributed for opening my eyes.