Lending money to brother in law

[HormonalHeap]

Brother in law is married but regularly asks dh (his brother) for loans on the quiet, asking that we don't tell my sil. The texts are pleading and using wording that will pull on dh's heartstrings.

Seems a strange marriage as sil inherited a lot of money and treats bil to lovely holidays etc but expects bil to pay some bills- but when he can't (work sporadic), he turns to dh. Dh told him we're happy to lend them money providing it's above board (ie she knows). He's now told bil it's me that feels we should only lend money with sil's knowledge.

Backstory is around 9 years ago, dh lent him an astronomical sum which he's never had back and written off. He also owed his sister money. Having said that, last time he borrowed money he paid back. Dh is making me feel like a bitch for saying no, but i'm just so sick of dh's kindness being abused.

HormonalHeap - btw also wanted to say your DH sounds like a wonderful, kind and genuine man. I would also help my family out whenever and however I can. I certainly have (financially and emotionally) in the past. I immediately mentally wrote off that money. I believe that if it was the other way round my family would do it for me. Actually, it goes beyond family too - and I have helped friends out as well. Shouldn't we all?

However, I am not being wrung dry by somebody which it sounds (based on your comments) like you are being - but I would take some of the comments on here about DH being weak / soft with a pinch of salt.

Sounds like your DH (the eldest DC in the family?) could do with some therapy to work out why he feels responsible for solving extended family members' issues and problems! Giving away money etc. It sounds a PITA to live with!

It is admirable that the OPs DH feels responsible for helping his family, and in an ideal world, that would be how it would be, but in this situation it appears to be all one way and I cannot see a time where the BIL will repay the favour (apologies if he provides hours of free childcare, DIY or car maintenance assistance or similar).

Apparently bil has always been a nightmare, and dh's family are terrified that if he and sil split, the beast will be unleashed.. Dh's whole family have a history of turning to dh to sort out their problems (usually financial but not always)

BIL is the 'puppet-master' pulling all the strings..manipulating everyone
the OP's husband has cast himself/been cast into the role of 'the person who makes everything all right' which means he also gets the blame if it goes wrong.

Husband is over a barrel, he cant not rescue BIL because if the shit hits the fan it will all be his fault and he presumably finds that possibilty too hard to cope with

if BIL was an alcoholic/addict presume the advice would be that he needs to be left to fail and hit 'rock bottom'?

Well its good your dh isn't insecure, but he isn't helping, really. Its v expensive firefighting- but it flares up again and again. I'd feel very weird being so implicated ir entwined in someoneelse's marriage the way your dh is - entwined but totalky in the dark. Bil really needs to grow up, your dh is infantlising him, even if he's doing it out of kindness (and indeed kindness may be dhs intention) . Like feeding a five year old only on baby food then more baby food because he cries if he doesn't get it. Its not kind, really

I don't think lending further money to family after they've failed to repay £60k is at all admirable.

Duckdeamon, he takes everyone's problems on his shoulders. He's the youngest of 3 siblings and they both lean on him. The other has health problems so I understand to a degree. I don't think I will ever be able to change him. And I would be a hypocrite not to concede that he hasn't been etrememly supportive to me either. But I have a conscience and would never, ever take advantage of his generosity as I love him and don't think he deserves it.

Enrique you summed up the situation perfectly. I don't think any amount of therapy would change dh though. I guess I either suck it up and pretend not to care, or put my foot down (like I have) and watch bil's life unravel when she leaves him, which would not surprise me.

"I don't think lending further money to family after they've failed to repay £60k is at all admirable"

Well, I wouldn't have £60k to lend someone in the first place, so I wouldn't know. However, I have helped out my brother and his wife with chunks of money - and offered them more. They always say it is a loan but I never expect it to be paid back.

If they came to me again and asked me for more help, I would give them money again. I don't believe I need therapy because of that DuckDeamon. I would assume that they needed it - or would never ask for it in the first place.

"From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" is the relevant quote.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs
yeah that went well didnt it

what about the little problem of 'moral hazard'?

watch bil's life unravel when she leaves him

I think that would be the most pragmatic solution

yeah that went well didnt ithmm

what about the little problem of 'moral hazard'?

Sorry - I wasn't aware it had been tried anywhere in line with the book it was taken from?

Sorry suzannecaravaggio I should add that I am not a Marxist - much more a staunch believer of Weberian "life chances" being explored. Before I get pigeonholed incorrectly.

Perhaps I am confusing things Unexpectedsocialist but the maxim 'From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs' may have been a good guide in your situation....and I am not suggesting that your actions were imprudent!

but with the scenario in question the bil is taking the piss with someone elses money!!!
he takes the risk and someone else bears the cost
=moral hazard
non?

I think everyone, if they could, would like to think that they would help out a relative or close friend who was in desperate need.

OP's BIL however is a chancer who has been pissing her Dh's money up the wall for years. All the money he has been given, under the premise of being loans are really gifts as he will never pay them back and just wants more. I've come across these types, they ask for loans "you are the only one who can help me, sob sob, I don't know what I am going to do", then treat the money as a gift to be frittered away on crap. They then get upset if you hint that you would like the money back, and behind your back are telling everyone else how mean you are. Next thing, they have dreamed up a new sob story and are back to tap you up.

There's throwing good money after bad, but at some point its got to stop. Why should OP's DH have to bank-roll this arse for the rest of his life?

suzannecaravaggio - I withdraw my comments unreservedly - I believed you were making a wider point about how socialism / communism failed on the basis of moral hazard (it has never been tried the way Marx suggested, and it was Marx I was quoting).

No in this situation I agree - withdraw funding. BUT be prepared to be supportive of BIL changing his ways in the future. As I have mentioned, it may be that SIL is an absolute horror abusing him by controlling him financially. Of course, BIL might just be a throbber.

I DO wonder whether if it was "SIL is borrowing money when BIL has loads of money and still expects her to pay for stuff herself. She is older and finds it hard to get work because of low self esteem" we might have some very different answers on here. We will never know.

suzannecaravaggio - I withdraw my comments unreservedly
Not at all Unexpectedsocialist :)
I'm sure the fault lies in my clumsily worded post!

(I want to know what all this 'borrowed' money is being used for)

I either suck it up and pretend not to care, or put my foot down (like I have) and watch bil's life unravel when she leaves him ...

Given that you've no real idea what BIL/SIL's situation is (with only the lies he uses to access money to go on) what makes you so sure SIL would leave him if DH stopped paying?

Even if she did, isn't that his business to sort out? And can I ask what on earth the reference to "releasing the beast" was about??

I DO wonder whether if it was "SIL is borrowing money when BIL has loads of money and still expects her to pay for stuff herself. She is older and finds it hard to get work because of low self esteem" we might have some very different answers on here. We will never know.

I'm thinking that too tbh.

Suzanne I don't know what lies bil has told sil about his financial situ. It looks like she's asking him to pay a few bills and he can't.

Puzzled I suspect (but cannot be sure), that if bil contributed nothing financially, she would leave him. She has already put in measures (prenup) just in case. Easy to say "Isn't that his business to sort out?" but knowing what you do about my dh, you must realise how it would impact on him. "Releasing the beast" was a clumsy way of me saying how things have been relatively peaceful since he married sil. I did not know bil before he married but apparently he was a nightmare in every way. Nobody wants to rock the boat, and I think that's one reason dh keeps playing ball.

Shutthatdoor I guess it makes uncomfortable reading to think that if the roles were reversed, the answers would be different. Should they?

Nobody wants to rock the boat, and I think that's one reason dh keeps playing ball

he is holding everyone to ransom with the implicit threat that he will act upif they dont all do want he wants to appease him

HormonalHeap Can I ask what the actual impact would have to be on your DH if BIL didn't get his way and SIL chucked him out - in other words, what the worst case scenario is?

I don't mean what impact the family would like to offload onto him, or even what responsibility he might choose to take upon himself ... I mean are there any downsides which he couldn't avoid if he genuinely wanted to?

Puzzle I guess the immediate impact would be that bil would be homeless, and we would have to have him here. Apparently before he met sil he was emotionally unstable and threatened suicide. I used to be married to someone like that, so I guess to live with someone like that again is my worst case scenario. Other than dh giving him regular handouts till bil 'sorted himself out' (unlikely to ever happen), no there are no more downsides. Isn't that enough

I am totally baffled by this thread.

Your DH is not responsible for his brother, and nor is he responsible for the rest of the family's relationships with the brother, good, bad or otherwise.

You mentioned school fees before, so presumably your DH has children? If that were me, I'd want any spare cash I had to go into savings for them. £60K just written off like that?! That's a sizable chunk towards a house deposit even if it's split between offspring.

Can your DH ask himself something like that - ie would be rather the money went to someone who wasn't taking advantage of him?

Enrique said it so much better than I could! I'll just reiterate it's not a time of trouble when it's so regular.

I don't suppose you would have a chat with sil? I don't feel particularly comfortable suggesting it, but you do need to know what on earth is going on there, as you two are being quite strongly affected by bil's actions, and as you say he lies, you can't rely on him.

TBH, if I were approached by someone who habitually lies and whom I couldn't trust, then I would feel very hesitant to lend them money, even if they were my brother. I would at least want to hear what his spouse had to say about it, as I would assume I was lending to the couple, the pair of them, the household, especially if it were a regular occurrence.