Lending money to brother in law

[HormonalHeap]

Brother in law is married but regularly asks dh (his brother) for loans on the quiet, asking that we don't tell my sil. The texts are pleading and using wording that will pull on dh's heartstrings.

Seems a strange marriage as sil inherited a lot of money and treats bil to lovely holidays etc but expects bil to pay some bills- but when he can't (work sporadic), he turns to dh. Dh told him we're happy to lend them money providing it's above board (ie she knows). He's now told bil it's me that feels we should only lend money with sil's knowledge.

Backstory is around 9 years ago, dh lent him an astronomical sum which he's never had back and written off. He also owed his sister money. Having said that, last time he borrowed money he paid back. Dh is making me feel like a bitch for saying no, but i'm just so sick of dh's kindness being abused.

YANBU

Sil has invested in quite a few houses in her name only which she rents out so has the income from that.

If this was a bloke the cries of abuse would be deafening.

Dh is fully aware that if bil and sil split up, it would cost him a lot more than the occasional loan as bil would have nothing

surely if they split, BiL would be entitled to half of the marital assets?

Yes, HormonalHeap - the points you mentioned would be more than enough to cope with if you had no choice but to take them on ...but you do have a choice

For instance, why would BIL "have to" stay with you if SIL throws him out? Granted it wouldn't be easy and he'd have to do some planning for himself (which he'll never do if others constantly pick up the pieces) but he'd still have options, as here: england.shelter.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/23393/ShelterGuide_RelationshipBreakdown.pdf

Re the instability / suicide threat, did anyone help him to access support at the time, or was it seen as BIL playing up again with DH/new wife simply expected to cure the problem with money?

You see, however difficult they may be there are options - and I'd very much hope DH doesn't regard endless handouts as one of them

So, in summary:

BIL is a liar who holds an unspoken threat of behaving like a nightmare over his family in order to get what he wants or avoid challenge. He has probably given his wife a completely inaccurate picture of his earning power to get her to marry him, and stay with him.

SIL may well be stingy and/or very controlling about money. She does not regard her money and assets as family money and assets (or if she does, her 'family' apparently does not include BIL). Their way of pooling money is very odd and does not work-she pays for luxuries, and they (probably) share bills though BIL cannot afford this.

Your DH is desperately propping up the status quo with regular loans (not always repaid), even though the status quo is horrible, because he fears things would otherwise be much worse.

Everyone has accepted that a divorce would lead to dire consequences like destitution for BIL, who would have to move in with OP. This is so even though pre-nups are only persuasive, not binding, and there is a presumption in favour of equal sharing of assets.

I honestly think the first thing you and DH ought to do is take stock of the situation yourselves, objectively, rather than accepting that things are as BIL believes or presents. BIL may genuinely be desperate, but that is because he doesn't want to be found out, isn't it? Not that catastrophe genuinely awaits.

Don't lend money. This will force BIL to consider his options and stop abusing your DH with emotional blackmail and lies. I think the key issue is not the money (you say you can afford it) but the dishonesty and manipulation. The only chance of moving to a healthier form of interaction is to stop enabling your BIL.

The thing is, this situation is probably only going to get steadily worse. Better to call a halt to this now, instead of in £25k time, surely?

If the SIL is demanding your BIL contributes financially, then she needs to know the reality of where the money's coming from - and that he isn't capable of meeting her requests off his own bat. And he needs to face up to the fact that his unluckiness with his career/fecklessness with money is a major issue in his relationship. Then it's up to them to work out just how significant a role his monetary contribution plays in their dynamic - but they have to work it out for themselves, not your DH.

Jux I'd love to talk to sil but I'm not going to do that. Dh told bil we'd lend to them but only as a couple. Yes I also think even that's wrong after the huge amount 9 years ago but everyone's different.

Boney they have a prenup so no idea what he'd be entitled to, the bare minimum I would imagine. Puzzled dh wouldn't see his brother in a shelter- just wouldn't happen. I have no idea what support bil had for his problems at the time as I hadn't met dh yet.

MyFavouriteClinton I reckon bil did indeed give sil an inaccurate impression of his earning power. She didn't particularly want to get married, he was asking her for years. She finally gave in, insisting on a prenup. i know prenups aren't binding but they are now taken more seriously. he wouldn't have a hope anyway though if she's put the properties into her children's' names. And they have no kids together. My first reaction was to tell dh to stop enabling bil. But by lending to them both, we are not enabling him- it's all out in the open. I don't believe sil would take a penny from us; a year ago when he asked, I did text sil to check the money had reached 'their' account, to which she replied "the cheeky b----r! You'll get a cheque straight back". And we did.

NotNowBono if I've given the impression the handouts are very regular such as monthly, that would be wrong. I'd guess 3/4 per year. You are of course correct that sil needs to know the truth, and make a decision based on whether she can live with that.

No, don't worry, you didn't give the impression that your DH had some kind of standing order! But in a way it's equally bad that he has to sub his brother 3/4 times a year - that's infrequent enough for your BIL to think he's got things under control, when the truth is that he hasn't.

It sounds as if SIL has a pretty shrewd idea about your BIL's relationship with money, going on the prenup and the reluctance to expose herself/her kids to his financial unreliability by marrying - I bet she's guessed what's going on already, but prefers to turn a blind eye to it, because she wants him to have some self-respect by paying bills, and doesn't want the big fall out of a confrontation, then the heartache of a vulnerable, sad and lonely BIL out on the streets. Let me guess: he's got a creative type job, that pays in lump sums? And he's passing your DH's 'loans' off as paid invoices? And not actually looking for very much work because his DW keeps booking cruises?

I agree that you need to stop enabling his fantasy that everything's under control. He's too old to play the hapless little boy. He needs a reality check, not a reality cheque. (Hee!) (Sorry.)

Gambling addiction.

Okay, I have to say I'm now thinking less "poor little financially abused victim BIL", and more "feckless gold-digger who was desperate to marry rich woman so he could continue being a feckless twat, with SIL desperate not to let his uselessness impact her 3 children's future".

Your DH is propagating your BIL's feckless, irresponsible behaviour, he needs to understand this. Your BIL will never make any changes to his life while your DH is baling him out, as the consequences are then your family's, not BIL's, which is a pretty cushty position he's in, actually.

NotNowBono no he isn't the creative type, qualified professional doing 'occasional'freelance work. It's kinda falling into place a bit.. They both announced around 6 months ago they were 'retiring'. So sil must have assumed bil had funds, or a property at least- perhaps the one that was re-possessed 9 yrs ago that dh sunk the 60k into in a last ditch attempt to avoid repossession? Who knows. They carried on cruising (excuse the pun) relentlessly and have been away he best part of last 6 months. But when we saw them a few weeks back and asked if he was doing any work, he looked nervously at sil and said "I'm starting to look for work".

No not a gambling addiction I'm as sure as can be.

No Aye, she came into the money after she married bil. Credit to bil where it's due!

The freelancing makes a lot of sense - I bet he's passing off your DH's gifts as invoices being paid for work, so SIL assumes he's keeping his business ticking over. Much easier to disguise than a missing monthly salary. There's obviously a lot at stake for them both, not just financially but in terms of pride and self-esteem and so on, but it's just not sustainable. And it's very unfair for the financial tensions in their marriage to start impacting on yours.

I'm still at the £60k your DH had to write off. That's probably set the bar for your BIL now; he'll have readjusted the reality in his head to be that anything less than that is a bargain for you two, since your DH didn't seem to mind about the £60k. I know a fair few blokes like your BIL and it's incredible what they can persuade themselves is 'fair' (bail outs) and 'unfair' (tax, VAT, people calling in debts, relations making lots more money than them down to the sheer fluke of working 60hr weeks, etc)

Is your DH talking about retiring and going on cruises?

If not, then I'd be damned if I would be spending my wages subbing someone else to! The brother is living a nice lifestyle and is not in 'trouble'.

The £60k aside, how much (approx) does your DH give his brother each year?

How much is he asking for this time?

If this your children's inheritance he's pissing away?

No Aye, she came into the money after she married bil. Credit to bil

Is he entitled to half of this?!

Are you in the UK OP, as my understanding is that prenups can be used as guidance in the UK law courts but aren't legally binding and can be ignored by the courts.

Please tell me straight away if I'm missing something here, but it seems:

DH now says he'll only lend to them "as a couple" to avoid enabling BIL
But SIL (who deserves truth) won't take a penny off you and returned previous money
So the cash won't reach BIL to help him and sorting himself out won't happen
And BIL doesn't want SIL to know about the cash, plus nobody wants to rock the boat
Therefore if cash is given to them both, BIL will be upset because SIL knows ... and he's unlikely to be able to keep the money anyway ... and if he can't he's unstable enough to threaten suicide

Forgive me if I'm being dense, but unless DH is prepared to say no and mean it - and finally give them a chance to address the whole thing together - I'm honestly not sure how this can be made to work?

I thought prenups were not legal in this country? Can't be enforced? I suspect your bil would get the lot, unless there were specific bequests noted in a Will.

Can you draw up a repayment plan and get bil to arrange standing order to start soon after the money is lent, signed at the time?

They are living at your expense atm.

Ok.. No, my dh has no intention of retiring- loves what he does. Yes bil has a great lifestyle punctuated every now and then with a furious row with sil.. enter dh! Rollonthesummer sil swiftly invested rhe money in property which I assume are safely in her children's names; in which case he's not entitled to any of it. Jux I wouldn't go so far as to say they are living at our expense. These are sporadic payments but I agree Puzzled it's all just wrong. This tevent request started at £500 but from one text to the next, inexplicably raised to £2k. I know full well the solution is for dh to stop. As for a repayment plan and standing order.. worthless if bil isn't earning. And sil doesn't need our handouts!

Bil was crying down the phone to dh this morning saying he'd told sil he was borrowing from us- but I just don't believe him, so dh hasn't sent any money.

Not tevent request- latest request, sorry

Your BIL is Greece.

The more money you throw at it, the more it swallows.

He was crying? Like he had the Sopranos after him? Where would he go for the money if you and DH say no? Has he actually said what it's for? Would he go to a payday loan company for it if you refused - and make things exponentially worse? Unless... he has got payday loans to pay off?

If your BIL was being forced to borrow money to pay for food while his DW lit the fire with tenners, then I'd be sympathetic. But if he has earning potential, plus a financially comfortable spouse, and no dependents and a cruising habit, this is really about pride, isn't it? And it's outrageous that he thinks he's more entitled to your money than your children!

TBH, by this point, I'd be fighting the urge to ring up SIL and say breezily, 'Just had BIL on the phone - do you need this £2k urgently, as we'll have to move some ISAs around to release the funds?' Unleash the beast.

Aye aye Amarok

Sorry, that's terrible advice! I'm just vicariously dishing out the tough love I bit my tongue on with quite a few girlfriends in the past...

NotNow yes my gut says it's a lot about pride. Yes dh said he was crying. Sounds like they'd had a nasty row and she's threatening to pull the rug from under his feet. Who knows? I'd love to tell sil the lot, including the massive one 9 years ago.

Sil is always quizzing dh about his work and earnings (in a nosyish kind of way), and I'm sure she gives bil a hard time. If it wasn't for all the lying, I would have more sympathy for him.

Trust me NotNow I've been so tempted