To not want to take on this responsibility

[sayerville]

I have 2 elderly neighbours lower down the road. The lady is having a hip op in 2 weeks. A few months ago my DH mentioned her DH could come up for tea, now she has taken this on board and wants me to meet with her to discuss what will happen. She thinks I will be having him every day for an evening meal and taking him to visit her. She said I don't want to press you but what days are you visiting me? I said I was unsure as I'd be working and could he get a taxi to visit her, she said it was expensive....even though she gets Att allowance as he has dementia. I work 4 full days so don't mind say 3 nights a week but some I work late and don't get in until 6.15pm and I'm knackered. Having lost my Mum earlier this year I feel a bit drained as she also had dementia and I'm finding this all a bit OTT. Also she is talking about me doing her shopping when she is out of hospital so I can see this being long term....am I being mean spirited?

I'm with expat on this one. You really need to be very firm with her. If she's capable of claiming AA for her husband with only the early stages of dementia she's certainly able to sort out care etc for him. As others have said, when she comes out of hospital she will need care herself, so who will help then?

Just because she's old does not make her sweet, I've worked with the elderly and some are lovely, others not at all and can be very manipulative. One always refused to pay for as much as a coffee when out, yet is able now to cover her care home costs (£1200/week) out of income. She's another where the family have very little to do with her.

I learnt my lesson years ago with a child that used to play with mine. He was a bit older but fun and I always had a houseful of children so one extra didn't matter, till he wanted to come on Saturdays. I said yes, then his mother said she'd have to drop him off at 8 am, couldn't pick him up till 6pm. I worked full time in a demanding job, had four children between 1 and 6, and didn't want to have to be up and dressed every Saturday. My very lovely cleaner told me I had to be very clear to the mother that it was a one off, as it was clear she was someone who would always take advantage. So I was, and it was ok, but I did feel ridiculously guilty to begin with. Turned out the mother had pulled this stunt with everyone in the village.

It is good to offer help, but there needs to be a limit

Do you have "milk and more" delivery near you it is the milk man, but he delivers other basic foods too

Some towns offer a community based lift service to hospital & doctors appointments. I expect that there may be a small fee. I believe you can pre book lifts via phone or internet

If you offer a lift to hospital, does that mean you have to stay for the whole visit & then take the person home - 11, 2 hours or more

I discovered that a neighbour of mine had been helping another neighbour. I was speechless when I found out how much time, effort, emotional help she had offered. My neighbour had a large family & commitments of their own

I agree that some people do not want to spend money eg on taxis, meals etc

I agree microwave is a good idea. Can get one free on Gumtree or Freecycle

Do not forget that your family comes first

Another solution, may be to contact some of the other neighbours

A group of you may like to offer help
This would help to share the care

Example
3 different people to provide a hot meal on different days of the week
Someone else to offer lifts
Someone else to do shopping

A week in hospital, will probably be several weeks at home with very limited mobility

I have been in a similar situation with a neighbour- similar but not as bad as this. We became unofficial carers for our hermit, socially incompetent, hoarding neighbour when he had a stroke last year. Because he has no contact with anyone else and because his house was in a dire condition he would not / could not ask for help from anyone else. Human nature means you want to be kind but it was a really hideous experience for me, worrying about him and his living conditions, worrying about the pressure put on my dh to fix his house up, feeling constant guilt about not doing enough and desperately sorry for myself, all while running him around, being company for a total stranger who took took took and gave nothing back, as well as working full time, running my own house and caring for my own children. i spent the full year feeling conflicted, angry and useless.

It was only as he recovered and took himself off without a backward glance or a word of thanks that I felt able to 'woman up'. When he came back last week looking for more help, I was pretty blunt about what we could do...very little. I feel like a weight has been lifted from my shoulders.

Be clear from the start OP and the very best of luck to you.

expat is absolutely right. I am afraid you have to be very tough and explicit with these people, no treading on eggshells or opportunity for ambiguity, you need to spell it out to them that you cannot provide the care that they want, you have a job and family commitments and are not up for that, that you are sorry if there was a misunderstanding between dh and them. If they want that level of care, to contact SS or the care agency, good luck with it all type thing.

I think that if OP wants to help then that's lovely & obviously up to her.

The "problem" is with laying out what she will do & sticking to it.

Also re asking neighbours, they might agree & then not do it last minute-would you then feel that you then had to step in, OP?

I don't think that you have to tell the couple that you will do nothing unless that's what you want or you feel that you will be pressured into doing more & will find it hard to say no.

Sayer can I just clarify something? You said in your OP that "I can see this being long term" but then last night it was "it's unlikely I'd get pulled in for anything other than this situation in a couple of weeks"

Maybe I'm confused, but to me the two don't seem to match? Everyone's given practically the same advice along with some excellent, practical tips - can I ask if this is what you actually wanted from us, and what you now intend to do?

What a difficult situation!
If it were me, I would offer 2 evening meals followed by an evening visit to the hospital (good chance for you to chat with the ward staff re any unreasonable expectations the wife has given the hospital)
Plus 1 plated meal that your DH will drop off.
And that's it.
Surely they have friends of their own, very telling if they don't.
And if necessary social services will need to be involved (sounds as though they need to be anyway on her return from hospital)

Or you could smile sweetly at the 'meeting' and present a bill with details of how much food/petrol/parking money you will have to fork out and request very nicely if you could have it in advance please. That honestly is what I would do. Say "otherwise we just can't afford it" with a sad smile.

As others have said, this situation needs nipping in the bud now. It's very easy to get sucked into booming a carer.

My parents had a similar thing with their elderly NDN. She was a frail old widow who didn't seem to have anyone, and they soon started to pick up shopping for her, driving her to the doctors etc, despite having full time jobs. She got a care alarm for emergencies, and soon enough they were down as her next of kin, so started dealing with 4am calls when she was feeling unwell or was stuck in bed. She always told them she had no other options for help, that she couldn't move into a care home as it'd mean selling her beloved house etc. When she died, the house was suddenly full of visitors, including a son that she'd neglected to mention who lived 10 minutes away! It was so kind of him to show up once it came to dividing up her estate. My parents were kind to spend so much time and money on a complete stranger, but it meant she never had to explore other options and got to be 'stuck in her ways' at the expense of others. It really is a slippery slope.

While I see the attraction of going down the set out your prices in advance route, but i really, really don't think it's a good way forward. These people sound very skilled in taking advantage, I doubt anyone could beat them at it. Adding costs/bills into the mix will just make it all more complicated and provide more opportunities for misunderstanding. It could also change the story any outsiders hear, to the detriment of OP and her desire to be kind to a neighbour without being taken over.

Id strongly agree with offering one thing, a meal one lunchtime or evening, and the associated company. sounds very generous to me and the most the OP should offer. Given the circumstances, I think it would. Be better not to be drawn in, if OP finds it difficult to say no assertively. Sad but there you are.

Sorry to hear about the loss of your mum OP. You've had a tough year and certainly don't need more stress now.

Just a word of warning about people with dementia that is assumed to be in the early stages. When there is a significant change in their circumstances the true level of their dementia can become clear. You may not have seen this in your parents if they were well supported.

A friend of mine was asked to keep an eye on an elderly neighbour while his sister was on holiday. Brother and sister had lived together for many years and the man was reported to have mild dementia but be self-caring. Unfortunately he wasn't. Sister called my friend in a panic and asked her to go round as he wasn't answering the phone. He hadn't eaten or drink much for a week, in the summer, and my friend found him collapsed. She ended up having to call an ambulance, be main point of contact throughout admission and after discharge as the sister didn't want to come home early.

In hindsight it's likely that the sister had been doing much more for him than she realised or wanted to admit. He became disorientated and more confused without her there.

You sound very kind and caring but this is actually a safety issue and adult social services should be involved before, not after the wife goes in.
I've been involved in discharge planning for elderly people and if the patient/relatives say they don't need help and have a helpful neighbour this will be a major part of the plan.

Stay strong OP! For everyone's sake!

Sorry if anyone else has pointed this out, but your other problem is trying to discuss this via an intermediary. This is always a nightmare as the speaker says things like "Oh he won't like that" and you can't challenge it with the person who supposedly won't like it as he isn't there. A recipe for being taken advantage of in any situation.

Haven't read ft yet, but wanted quickly to jump in and say if she is having hip done- she may come out with 'hip precautions' which restricts movement and bending- can be for up to 6 weeks, so you may then fins you become reluctant carer for both neighbours, particularly if you are seen by hospital staff as having undertaken the caring role. I would encourage the meals on wheels route and why should you change the way you cook?! (Or am I being overtly harsh here?)

I agree with expat, but I wonder how in the future I would survive as an OAP.
I think you need to tell her, that you can provide X meals, you can put aside a portion of supper & drop it off the next day/freeze. (you can start freezing now !!!) left over portions of spag bol./cauli cheese etc.
She must get meals on wheels. He will not die from it.
However say NO to hospital visit as you are still reeling from latest trauma, Suggest he get a taxi, in any event she would have to provide petrol & hosp. car park costs, so very possibly cheaper. If not she can ask other neighbours/nephews.
Sadly your work & family commitments oblige.

Another solution, may be to contact some of the other neighbours

Yes why not. OP - get online and build a website and start a small business to manage this whilst you are at it. Great idea.

Or just say 'Gosh, as my husband suggested, he can come for his tea one evening, whichever night he is cooking. Other than that, you need to contact X or Y to arrange care'.

Just want to echo poppie D above. An elderly person with a hip op is not likely to be mobile for ages. This arrangement is likely to run well into the new year. Also what if she has complications and requires a long hospital stay? You will be in the worst position of having responsibility for this chap without any decision making abilities..barge pole!

You are way too nice.

One thing I find useful when I'm confronted by people like this is too really take my time when I answer them. Otherwise it's too easy to blurt out something I regret. I probably come across as a bit slow but it work for me. . I also say things like 'hmm, let me think about that for a moment' and a lot of 'hmm, can I get back to you about that later'

I also think it's best to avoid 'excuses' .

You or your dh absolutely need to speak to someone on her ward when she's in, making it very clear that you are not available for caring for her on her discharge from hospital.
Fil had told his nurse that dh would be doing all his care at home after his stroke and they had arranged his release on that premise.

We both work, 3 dc etc, so quite how he thought we could manage 3 visits a day for meals plus washing him and food shopping is beyond me but there you go.
He would also say he needed nothing cooked/preparing/no shower to his carer and ring dh as soon as they left saying he had to go round and do it.

Nobody at the hospital will care or judge you for saying you are unavailable but it is vital that they know what situation they are releasing her in to.

I think once you offer to do something, you will be roped into doing more and more. I think that you can say that you will bring round a few evening meals and check on him occassionally and that is it, anything else, they need to call SS. notquite your parents were far too nice and giving, very cheeky of the family, to not do any of the care, but stay for the rewards . This could end up being op, if she is not tough.

OP I think it's great you want to help, but remember this is on YOUR terms.

It would be different if for example you offered help, and they said that would be wonderful, and YOU offered what you could do, eg we could give one meal a week and one lift a week.

Whereas you have kindly offered to help and she is demanding you help and assuming you will do whatever. She is being rude, and I understand how you feel, I'm a people pleaser and don't like saying no, but please do stand up to her, and offer what you can do, no more.

It's really great you want to help, but please don't be taken advantage of.

You need to be firm now or it will come back and bite you, trust me I know!

Penfold - I speak from bitter and exhausting experience. My mother does this to me. She ruined Christmas for my kids by creating one of her dramas. I ended up out of the house at 7am and didn't get back until 8pm too late for anything.

for you.

PILs also have dementia. That could have been us. MIL has twice ended up admitted to hospital the evening before a family member left to go on holiday / return to work abroad. Drama indeed. A 5-minute drop-in to check they've taken meds / put the bins out often turns into 2 hours doing many other things, as they cope less and less each day.

MIL had a hip replaced before FIL developed dementia. She wasn't fully mobile for nearly a year. There is no way FIL could have helped her with basic living - making food and drink for example - once he developed dementia. If she had to go into hospital now for any reason, FIL would have to go into care.

OP, this lady needs external help right now. You can call SS and tell them that you are a concerned neighbour. SS will assess their actual needs and offer support. That's the most useful thing you could do right now.

I would agree with getting adult social services involved before not after. I think the point raised by Dashie that his dementia may be more advanced than they are letting on is a good one.

I've seen before that people do minimise the situation with dementia. MIL tried this about FIL, but it became clear the problem was way more advanced than just a little forgetfulness and the family rallied round to get things organised.

Don't offer more than maybe a meal or two.
Don't offer to organise neighbours
Do make sure the hospital are aware you are not able to provide care, regardless of what this lady may be saying.

All advice I'd agree with as it's clear you'd otherwise end up as the main carer. They do need to get professional help in now, as this is going to be more than a week or two. They've got money, they've got family in the form of nephews, you shouldn't be involved here.

sayer these neighbours are extremely crafty, they can see you want to help, and that you are a soft touch, and they are playing at that, knowing that you will find it extremely difficult to say not. Yes I wonder why their nephews are not helping out, I wonder. I think they might just have a form for this kind of behaviour. You are going to have to be blunt, and with a steely reserve, no means no. If you do want to help a bit, tell them what you are able to offer, e.g. you will make extra and bring in 3 meals a week to the husband and will occassionally knock on the door to check, but that is it. Anything else, will be met with a no, we cannot do that sorry!

OP, my dad has mild dementia. When my mother had a fall last year & broke her ankle, she was not able to be his carer, as she usually is.

My sisters & I were not able to support them (none of us live nearby) during the week. We did cook, shop & clean at weekends though .

My mum phoned social services & they had someone round for emergency support WITHIN the HOUR. Because my dad had a dementia diagnosis & was known to SS/ in receipt of DLA.

My dad's dementia definitely changed for the worse while my mum was incapacitated.

I would think very carefully before becoming involved.