To have finally put my niece in her place after taunting my daughter for what she wears?

[CharlotteY1]

I have a ten year old Dd and an 8 almost 9 year old niece. For a while now when have vsisted my SiL's house or been on a day out together my niece takes it upon herself to carefully "assess" what my dd is wearing and if she doesn't like it then she doesn't hide it.

My Dd is quite a sensitive child and whilst she can usually brush off any teasing she is now sick of her cousin constantly scrutinising what she wears and making fun of her. I've had words with my SiL about this in the past but she just brushes it off sayid that she will "have words with her" but still it continues.

Well today we have been out for our annual Christmas meal, my Dd was dressed lovely yet as per my niece decided to have digs at her telling her that she looks stupid and that's not how her fiends dress. My SiL was sat right next to my niece and then my Dd next to her so she would have heard what she was saying, yet she chose to ignore it. My niece carried on and by this point my Dd was almost in tears so I decided to say something. I told my niece that at least my Dd dresses for her age, she wears clothes that are comfortable and stylish instead of walking round in belly tops and leggings with her backside hanging out! Now you can guess that after blatantly ignoring her dd calling my dd my SiL happened to hear what I had to say didn't she?.....well she wasn't happy. But you know what.....tough, why should I let my not so darling niece ridicule for my dd yet again who by the way dresses lovely usually wearing smart skinny jeans with jewelled tops, body warmer, and smart hi tops, or gorgeous skirt top sets etc. She doesn't walk round looking like she's a teenager like my 8 year old niece does flashing her arse and belly, so Aibu for finally saying something? My Dh doesn't think I am as he's admitted his niece is a little madam but maybe I could have timed it better.

I don't think i can blame the op for feeling the way she does about her niece really.
This girl upsets her child repeatedly no wonder op doesn't like her, doesn't matter that she is family.

Tali you're rather alarmingly overinvested in this.

The level of vitriol about an 8 year old child is just weird

Perhaps a lie down and a rethink of career choice?

There's plenty of people over invested on this thread, I can't believe it's still going on, you're going around in circles.

Im not going around in circles. I've only just arrived.
It's hard to resist a thread with quite so many variations of stupid.
It's this or wrapping really.

Walter I have a dislike of bullies.

I like my career thanks. Luckily most kids are not bullies.

Tali - If you are thinking of or about to start work in education I think you need to address your own issues.

And I don't mean that in a spiteful way at all but you seem so distressed by this issue and so concrete in your thinking about 'bullies'.

We're talking about primary school aged children on this thread. The ones that most of MN wouldn't leave in the house for 20 minutes alone but somehow considered to have metacognition around their own behaviour to be considered 'nasty little shits' or whatever.

Some 'bullies' may just enjoy it or are predisposed to that behaviour by nature. Possibly.

Some bullies are possibly deeply unhappy and damaged children who may be inflicting their own pain and confusion on other children or replicating their own shitty experiences.

And before anyone suggests it, I'm not excusing bullying or suggesting that every bully has had a shit time themselves. Nor am I saying this is the case with DN. And yes, it's hard to care about a bully when it's your child upset.

But working in MH I've known lots of child bullies as adults. Lots of whom were going through hell themselves and feel deeply ashamed as adults of what they did. And being considered to be 'little shits' for most of their childhood wasn't helpful.

Of you're going to work in education then you will need to be able to reject the bullying behaviour but not reject the child.

Tali - do you really think the level of bullying described here is on the scale of making the OP's dd want to commit suicide? Sadly, a great many children are capable either of the level of bullying displayed by the OP's niece (ie of telling another child they don't like their clothes and that they do not dress like their friends), or of joining in with a ringleader to do it. That level of bullying is not rare at all. It is usually learned behaviour - other children in the class have done it to them, so they try it out on others.

Fortunately, the niece is only eight years old - there is time to work on her and anyone else in her class who behaves like this, so that she does not become the sort of bully who could torment another human being to the point of suicide. She will not be trained out of that way of thinking and behaving, though, by having an adult tell her they hate her clothes, too. If you don't see that, your rigid black/white thinking on this, where any level of bullying is a sign of evil personified, does not demonstrate to me that you should ever get a job working with young people. You would end up hating half the girls in your class at one point or another.

If, on the other hand, this girl really is a dangerous, feral beast, rather than a little girl who can firmly be put in her place and taught right from wrong by adults who behave like they know the difference, then her aunt shouldn't be sitting her dd anywhere near her over Christmas lunch. My deep suspicion is that the girl is just a brat, not a she-devil, however...

laughing I understand that, and yes some bullies do have issues. That doesn't excuse the behaviour however.

I remember from my own primary school a gang of kids telling an autistic girl to hang herself and crowding round her until she wrapped her coat around her neck in tears. But they're only kids?! Kids can be ridiculously nasty.

As a child I would cry if I stepped on an insect by accident. I can't fathom how much of a knob you would have to be to enjoy bullying someone else.

Some bullies are damaged and need help however I still feel more sorry for the victim

round what matters is what the victim considers it. If the victim thinks it's bad enough, it's bad enough. Children joining in with a ringleader is something else I feel strongly about, in my opinion they're just as bad as the instigator.

But at 8 she shouldn't behave like that anyway.

I'm usually able to see both sides however on this issue I firmly back the innocent party

"Oh DFO. Just because I don't believe bullies are little angels ......"

Neither does anyone else. Don't make things up.

But you are backing the OP, Tali. She is not the innocent party, she made sure of that! Her dd is the innocent party.
What would your attitude be to the OP if it turned out that the dd was just repeating behaviours that had been inflicted on her and, actually, several other people had told her she looked like a slut in her clothes, so after she heard similar from her aunt, too, she started self-harming, or killed herself? Would you think it served her right to have lashed out at an innocent bystander and she should have known better how to deal with her emotions at eight years old (she should have had the courtesy to cry in front of everyone, for example, so that your colossal empathy could have been given a clue as to her real feelings), then, or would you wish you had understood more of the context before you chose to be so judgemental and call her a little shit?

It seems bizarre to me how you can worry about a poor insect that would happily sting you, but describe an eight year old child you have never met as a little shit on the say-so of her aunt.

By giving someone a "taste of their own medicine" you are doing something you know to be wrong in order to hurt someone else. There are more effective and less risky ways of showing people the error of their ways. Giving someone a taste of their own medicine is more about enjoying hurting someone you have grown to hate than teaching them to behave differently.

I'd still love to know if people would still think the 'taste of her own medicine' would have been OK if the bullying has been physical, and if, instead of saying something nasty to this child, the OP had thumped her.

And if it is OK for this adult to give a child 'a taste of their own medicine', where does it stop? Would it be OK for a teacher to do something similar? Or a policeman, maybe?

I would just distance myself from the 8 year old and tell my dd to ignore her jibes as it was because she wasn't up on the latest fashion.

That is my best scenario, I would in reality tell her she was being a judgmental little girl and I didn't like her approach and then say that what people chose to wear is their choice, but that what she was wearing was rather inappropriate because her arse was on show etc etc.....

Please would the "taste of their own medicine" brigade please answer these two questions.

1. Would you be happy if a teacher used the same policy?

1. If the OP's niece had hit her dd, would it still be all right for the OP to give her niece a "taste of her own medicine"?

I've asked that twice, Bertrand - no joy yet.

Oops, sorry, so you have! Maybe our joint effort might make them think rather than just emote?

A taste of your own medicine covers a wide spectrum and circumstances (like most of life). You still have to use judgement. I don't think yo can rule it out just outmost hand. As I Said, my husband was getting hassle from some boys. He walked past as they were hassling him and punched one on the ear damaging his ear drum. They never messed with him again. I won't shed a tear for them. He thinks it was a good result. I think many bullied children would love to have put their bullies in their place rather than cower in fear and run away. I wish they cod have done so and given the bullies a taste of their own medicine.

Empathy for those we perceive to be the same as us or people we like is a bit empty and redundant

I would love to see how tali actually deals with bullying when she is a teacher. Will she give bullies a taste of their own medicine?

And how she would deal with the situation when the mother of the bully accuses her (quite rightly of bullying a child) and either gives her a taste of her own medicine or makes a formal complaint.

Or how would she deal with the mother of a child who has been bullied shouting abuse at the bully in the school yard?

Bambambini - my question about 'a taste of their own medicine' was asking specifically if it would have been OK for the OP (an adult) to hit a child, if the bullying had been physical, rather than verbal.

I suspect that most of the people on this thread who are advocating 'a taste of their own medicine' for the bullies, would draw the line at an adult hitting a child - and I think that is wrong. It says that physical violence against a child is unacceptable, but verbal violence is OK - 'Sticks and stones will hurt your bones, but calling names can't hurt you' - a theory that I know to be utterly wrong.

Physical injuries heal - it is the mental injuries that cause the long term damage - and verbal violence does just as much mental damage as physical violence - so neither is acceptable for an adult to use against a child, except in the most exceptional of circumstances - which this was not. The OP had other options to tackle this issue - she could have given a sharp, harsh bollocking, without the personal insults and shaming comments, she could have bollocked her SIL for letting her dd act so nastily, she could have gathered her child and left - she didn't - she lashed out at a child.

I am assuming that, in your husband's case, he was the same age, or similar age to the boys who were taunting him, rather than an adult thumping a child. I suspect that, had an adult hit, and caused actual bodily harm to a child, that adult would have been facing charges.

I think there is a difference between a child who has been bullied until they reach the point of snapping and lashing out at the bullies, and an adult doing the same to a child who has been hurting their child.

I think people won't answer the question because they haven't thought it through.

YABU - and a bully.

Poor girl. You could have said something like no one likes a bully. You could have even mentioned it to your sister. You don't like you DD being judged for her clothes but do the same to your niece. Your an adult for Christ sake.

I would say avoid them in future, but i doubt your sister will want to see you anytime soon.

jane I'd like to know how you expect an 8 year old to understand "judgemental"?!

I get that this child is not especially pleasant, that she has wound the OP up but generally its either tit for tat or she's disturbed.

For an example the bully who tormented me a bit in secondary school not a lot but a bit. She was bullied and criticised by her own mother, and I know this as I wrote her an email forgiving her a few years back after I'd worked this out. She's had to work through her issues with her mother since.

Talizorah the examples of bullying that you are giving are extreme.