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Original poster

Where do you stand on this one...

419 replies

Marilynsbigsister · 15/12/2015 17:13

I'm not going to NC but will be slightly oblique about circumstances as quite identifying . Two very young 20 yr olds in a relationship. Been together 3 months. Male at Uni but lives at home, female working also living at home. The boy has mentioned to his parents (actually his mum mostly) that cracks are starting to appear because she is keen to move on to the next level and is putting the pressure on to get a flat together and 'settle down'. Boy has told her 'definitely not at the moment' his plans include post graduate study abroad for a couple of years . Anyway, the dilemma.. 2 days after the 'settle down' conversation, there was a contraception failure. Condom split, (apparently it was not just a small tear but from top all way to base. ) Boy has been taught from early on that he must be responsible for his own fertility and insisted on condoms as he is adamant he doesn't want children yet although gf is on the pill. Boy is now beside himself with worry, he begged his gf to go with him to get morning after pill. Gf reaction has been to refuse saying that if she gets pregnant against all these odds then it is meant to be . Boy is the sort to do the right thing. Would give up career goals of he had children to support. I know all the ins and outs because mum is close relative. Mum believes gf is manipulating her son into parenthood because this happened literally a couple of days after discussing settling down. What is the right thing to do if she is pregnant. ? Does he give up his plans and support a child he does not wish to have, took precautions to avoid and made his feelings very clear BEFORE conception. Or does he suck it up, leave Uni and get a job to support the child and learn never again have sex with someone he doesn't want to have a child with. ? For my part I have met the gf a few times so not enough to form an opinion except that she is much more mature than her boyfriend. (My relative is livid and truly believes she 'doctored the condoms - which would be impossible - she is too angry to be logical !)
BTW she was due AF on Monday. Apparently there are pts that are accurate to a few days late so all a bit tense in female relatives household at the moment.

OP posts:
reni2 · 17/12/2015 16:42

I understand the point you are making, LeaLeander. I was very careful picking the man who became dh and father to my dc.

But I come from a middle class background, have always had all I need and a lot of what I want, have a really good education and am therefore independent, I have a close and supportive family to fall back on and my parents modelled a loving and respectful marriage for us kids.

Many women have none of the above and I cannot imagine what I would have done if I had grown up in an abusive household, married an abusive man, lived in poverty... these women are not consciously choosing men who are bad for them.

reni2 · 17/12/2015 16:45

X post with Princess there.

Pyjamaramadrama · 17/12/2015 16:47

Again you are being far too simplistic, there are many more layers to society than your example of the dopey women who keeps hoping for the best.

WoodHeaven · 17/12/2015 16:48

pyjamas the society you describing isn't what happens here though.
As women we have much more freedom and protection than that!

(Yes I'm aware it DOES happen. But not as general rule)

Pyjamaramadrama · 17/12/2015 17:05

Well if we are just talking about women who have children with undesirable men.

I did not grow up in a nice middle class family I grew up in a shocking family in a deprived area, lots of poverty, crime, unemployment, I've also worked around children and families for many years and I also love somewhere very diverse and multicultural.

I've seen people go both ways but generally there are many reasons why women fall into bad situations, often low self esteem, no aspiration, no education but to simplify, if you've never seen the right way to live, if you've never had good relationships modelled to you then you just don't know, you don't see the signs, no one around you sees the signs.

And I can almost hear you thinking well if people stop ringing children into those situations... But the buck doesn't just stop with women.

Then you ha e pockets of society where women and men are still married off very young and it would be shameful to divorce or for a woman to remain unmarried.

That only touches the surface though really.

Pyjamaramadrama · 17/12/2015 17:06

Live somewhere

Pyjamaramadrama · 17/12/2015 17:10

That's besides the fact that it isn't only women that have children with multiple partners, yet you see it all the time on here, man shacks up with new women yet everyone has sympathy that some of his hard earned cash has to go on his existing children.

Also not forgetting the seemingly nicest men have affairs, never get too high on your horse.

ImtheChristmasCarcass · 17/12/2015 17:23

I've raised my two sons that if they choose to have sex there is always the possibility of pregnancy either because of contraception failure or intentional misleading. And that neither of those will get them out of supporting a child. It's just the chance you take. So far (knock wood) there have been no 'mistakes'.

I know of 4 men who trusted their partners to be using contraception only to find out that they were not. Three of these were young men (17, 19, and 25) and one was a married man whose wife TWICE got pregnant by not taking the pill and lying about it. Yes, part of the fault lies with them for trusting (although a man should be able to trust his wife), but surely some of the blame lies with the women? It seems as if so much responsibility is being put on the men on this thread to basically never trust their partners and/or never have PIV sex. Are we as women so untrustworthy? Certainly my DH trusted me with contraception before and after we had our children.

As a woman, I can 'correct' my contraception failure. My sons cannot. They are 'stuck' with whatever the woman decides to the extent that they are responsible for the financial support of the child. But if a man truly doesn't want to be a father, should he be forced into a relationship with an unwanted child?

Pyjamaramadrama · 17/12/2015 17:31

I mean here's another scenario for you.

Girl grows up in bad home, dad never works, dad treats mum like shit, dad never really parents, mum ndn dad don't really value education so they let girl miss loads of school, all the lads in the area do drugs smoke weed, all the girls get drunk in the park, the lads generally coerce the girls into sexual acts in the park.

When girl is 17 she gets a job in the local shop and meets a lad, Matt, Matts is training to be a plumber, he's smart, not like the local lads, he asks her out, takes her out, buys her gifts. Matt starts telling her she should cut her friends loose, they're all slags, he's got a point, right? Matt doesn't like her talking to any of the lads from the area, well they're all dicks anyway, right?

Matt suggests girl move in with him, well it he's got a nice flat, better than living with her horrible dad.

It's great living with Matt, a quiet life, he cooks proper meals, likes to keep the flat clean.

One night she's meeting up with an old friend, Matt doesn't want her to go out in that short dress so he grabs her arm, hard enough to leave a bruise. He's really sorry though, it's only because he cares, no one else has ever cared...

reni2 · 17/12/2015 17:43

I am still waiting for LeaLeander's apology for the disgusting sexist and ageist insult aimed at many women on this thread though.

Pyjamaramadrama · 17/12/2015 17:46

Actually I've just seen Lealeander over on the fart thread she's probably suffering from a spot of trapped wind aye Wink

WoodHeaven · 17/12/2015 18:00

Christmas I Agree. That's what i will tell my two ds too. (They are too young for that yet!)

However, as a woman, I also think I have a big part of responsibility in it. Actually, in some ways I feel MORE responsible because I have more choice. Whatever I do will be fully my choice whereas the father will have to make do with what I want.

LeaLeander · 17/12/2015 18:03

Whatever I do will be fully my choice whereas the father will have to make do with what I want.

Exactly, WoodHeaven. You get it!

Pyjamaramadrama · 17/12/2015 18:15

No you really don't get it

BogusCatAndThePunk · 17/12/2015 18:27

Can I just point out that a lot of DV only starts in pregnancy.

So by then it's usually too late either for an abortion if that is your choice. Or for thoes caught in the high rent low wage trap, to leave.

It's very easy to make sweeping statements like ' why did you have a child with him' but some of these arses are cunning enough to hid their true nature for years.

AyeAmarok · 17/12/2015 18:38

LeaLeander, let me get this straight.

Women should have the foresight to spot that their DP is going to become untrustworthy,abusive/feckless and not risk getting pregnant by them, not have sex and get out of the relationship immediately.

However, men don't need to spot that their DP is untrustworthy/manipulative and may try and get pregnant, and not have sex with them. They should be able to continue to have sex with the woman, and then if she won't have an abortion, he shouldn't be responsible for the child?

The responsibility is all on the woman?

Am I right?

AyeAmarok · 17/12/2015 18:38

LeaLeander, let me get this straight.

Women should have the foresight to spot that their DP is going to become untrustworthy,abusive/feckless and not risk getting pregnant by them, not have sex and get out of the relationship immediately.

However, men don't need to spot that their DP is untrustworthy/manipulative and may try and get pregnant, and not have sex with them. They should be able to continue to have sex with the woman, and then if she won't have an abortion, he shouldn't be responsible for the child?

The responsibility is all on the woman?

Am I right?

Oswin · 17/12/2015 19:08

Lealander every single vile thing you've posted has been towards women. Not one towards men.
What kind of fucking issues have you got. For fucks sake this thread is fucking awful.

LeaLeander · 17/12/2015 19:22

I've posted nothing but common sense. As a women, I know that we are in control of the outcomes that our children experience because we are 100 percent in control of whom we choose to sire our offspring.

I wish more women were discriminating and careful about exactly what sort of fathers they are saddling their offspring with. The signs of loserhood are generally quite prominent well before conception, as we all know. If you mate with a loser, don't play the innocent victim afterward. You picked his sperm to accept.

What's "vile" about that? I've readily acknowledged that many men ARE unreliable, irresponsible, undesirable and/or disinterested losers who won't make good parents. All the wishing in the world won't change that but what we CAN control is the choice of whether or not to breed with them. I say it makes more sense not to, than to bear the kids and then complain that you were somehow done wrong.

UkmmTheSecond · 17/12/2015 19:22

Fucking hell, this thread.

Reproductive choices are one of the few things women have more of than men. (In this country, plenty of places where women don't have access to contraceptives like we do, and their husbands control their bodies and what happens to them) It's one of the few things where it's ultimately her choice, what with it being her body.

I'm genuinely shocked at the amount of posts who seem to think having these choices are not fair etc, that a man should be able to walk away if he didn't want to be a parent.

A recent thread had a woman asking how it's possible for men to walk away from women without a second thought for their dc and do everything they can to not provide. She was wondering why they are not shamed. After reading this thread it's easy to why it happens.

What happens when a pregnancy is planned, but then the man changes his mind a few months later? Women should always be the one who decides what happens to her body.

Why don't men campaign for more funding to be put into development of male fertility options? Makes more sense than complaining about women having autonomy. Although I do wonder what number of men will have the injection to their testicles when it becomes available. Not many I reckon.

LeaLeander · 17/12/2015 19:26

With the greater choice/control comes the greater responsibility/accountability for the outcomes. That's how the world works.

UkmmTheSecond · 17/12/2015 19:30

A family member has just found herself on her own with 6 children. She is going to be on benefits for the first time in her life at 31. She's very anxious about being judged by people like LeaLeander. She should have known her dh was going to have a heart attack at 32 and chose better I guess, eh LeaLeander?

She's burying her dh on Xmas eve, she has enough to worry about without worrying what judgmental twats think of her being a single mum of six on benefits.

LeaLeander · 17/12/2015 19:35

That's a terrible shame about your family member's loss of their husband/father - but, on topic, did they not have life insurance? I do think it's irresponsible to bear children without having insurance to take care of them should parent or parents die. No one can specifically predict a 32-year-old dying of a heart attack but serious illness, accident, disability, job loss, economic recessions and other adversities are not lightening bolts out of the blue - they crop up in most people's lives from time to time and yes, should be prepared for.

We aren't gerbils. Producing one or more additional human beings is a monumental choice and responsibility, and should be entered into carefully and thoughtfully and with all due precaution for life's ups and downs. Especially on a planet that is already teeming with humans even as natural resources, other species and the need for human labor are fast dwindling.

PrincessMouse · 17/12/2015 19:51

Ukmm I am really sorry to hear that.

LeaLeander I totally understand your thoughts and argument regarding "choice". I somewhat agree that we do all have a choice regardless of background. However, your last post was uncalled for and cold. You are clearly bright enough to understand not everyone is in a position to get that kind of cover even if they can financially afford it. It's not appropriate to write that when they are about to bury a loved one. It really isn't.

LeaLeander · 17/12/2015 20:01

Princess, I certainly do feel sympathy for the widowed woman and her children but this is a public message board where we were discussing abstract concepts of responsibility and reproductive choices.

It was not my decision to pull a real-life tragedy into the mix or use it to try to score a point, it was the other poster's. I don't think one should do something like that if one doesn't expect it to be commented upon in the context of the ongoing discussion. So if anyone was being inappropriate, it was not me.

And to your other point: If one "can't afford" a nominal monthly payment toward life insurance coverage, one certainly cannot afford the kids it is meant to protect.