To think a great way for a transgender person to avoid going to the wrong gender prison

[wasonthelist]

Would be not to headbutt a barman.

facicle "whether or not womens rights are reduced by transgender rights in any given situation is somewhat subjective"

Disagree. A young woman lost her place on her community college basketball team - her right to play cometitive sport - to a 6 foot 4 59-year-old transwoman. The coach is on record as saying that before Gabrielle called him he had already picked his team but changed his mind when he heard how tall Gabrielle was. I don't think that's at all subjective.

The argument about TW being women, so that means women's rights aren't being eroded doesn't fly with me.

As I said before I haven't been sure where I stand on this. But I have been thinking a lot about it.

I also discussed Fallon Fox with my Male Sensei yesterday, in between sparing sessions with him.

The reason it doesn't fly is (and let's for argument sake say they are women and everyone accepts them as women) they are in the minority.

Millions of women should not have their rights to privacy removed because of a tiny amount of women want to take it away.

The man in a skirt (let's be honest he isn't even making an effort to be a woman, he is a transvestite at most ) should not have the right to use a changing room when young girls are in there, if it's making them uncomfortable.

Saying that your identify as a woman is not being a woman. Especially when you have no idea what being a woman is because you grew up as a man. I just can't get my head round how a man can say he feels like a woman, when all women I have discussed that with can not say what it feels like to be a woman. I can't get my head round how they know this.

Having a female brain also doesn't make sense if they are committing crime at the same rate as men. If they had female brains, thy would commit crime around the same rate as women surely?

The Paris Green example doesn't work. Firstly because the reports are very carefully only based on allegations, not proof, and there is in fact no mention of penetrative sex. And secondly because there is no suggestion that, if she did get involved in sexual relationships, it wasn't consensual. There are plenty of consensual sexual relationships in women's prisons containing no transgender prisoners.

dipan wow - so much for "we believe you".

There is nothing that makes you uncomfortable at the thought of women being imprisoned with a man who is having sex with them? Really, you can't think of a single reason why that might not be ok?

Even if the sexual relationships were consensual there is one obvious potential result of that. Pregnancy.
This must be a nightmare for the prison service.

There is nothing that makes you uncomfortable at the thought of women being imprisoned with a man who is having sex with them?

Is there anything that makes you uncomfortable at the thought of women being imprisoned with a woman who is having sex with them?

And, noeffing, the prison service is very well used to dealing with pregnant prisoners.

And, noeffing, the prison service is very well used to dealing with pregnant prisoners.

they are used to dealing with women who fall pregnant in prison?

So male guards have sex with female prisoners and get them pregnant, that much that the prison service (as a whole) has a lot of experience of dealing with them?

I don't think so.

And if that's true, just proves that someone with a penis should not be in a prison with women.

HermioneWeasley, your Daily Mail link says that Paris Green was moved from a women's prison, to the women's wing of another prison, for alleged sexual relations or 'dalliances'. I'm not sure what point you're making in relation to the erosion of women's rights by transgender rights.

Having looked at other cases you've referenced, I notice that you're providing sensationalised, somewhat misleading, stories coupled with rather odd choices of images.

Colleen Francis. You've posted a photo of Colleen as a male, presumably pre-transition, saying: 'This is Coleen Francis who identifies as a woman.' Why would you do that, when you could have chosen an image of Coleen presenting as a female? Moreover, if you google the story, there are alternative accounts that provide an explanation of the incident, where there was no attempt by Colleen to display her genitals in front of teenage (or younger) girls.

Gabrielle Ludwig - again, you select a photograph for maximum impact and provide half the story. You don't mention that Gabrielle had undertaken hormone treatment for several years; had reassignment surgery; satisfied the regulations to compete on a female team; had offered to leave the team; received the support of her teammates etc. Here is a rather different account of her story:

www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/gabrielle-ludwig-transgender-basketball-player_n_2302556.html

In terms of your view that transwomen are not entitled to claim the same status/rights as born women - do you view transmen in a similar way? And what are your views on people born with mixed sexual characteristics and their decision to alter those characteristics and possibly change the way they identify - how do you see their rights in relation to those who are transgender and those who are happy with the sex they were born with?

People who are of one sex, saying they are the other sex, are not intersex people. Trying to conflate the two still does not make transgender people intersex. It is a straw man argument and co-ops the biological anomaly of intersex people which does not in any way apply to people who are not intersex.

People seem to throw the term 'reassignment surgery' when describing a varying amount and different types of cosmetic surgery. Cosmetic surgery of any kind does not make a person of one sex, in essence, become a person of a different sex.

It seems to be a case of trying to make a lie repeated a million times become the truth.

I was just thinking about how cosmetically rearranged penile/testes skin is being called a neo vagina by some people. It is no more a neo vagina than it is a neo mouth or neo anus or neo armpit. It functions as much as any of these as a vagina. Faux or pretend is a more apt name.

In terms of your view that transwomen are not entitled to claim the same status/rights as born women - do you view transmen in a similar way?

Obviously not - transmen are women, and therefore are entitled to the same rights as women.

I don't think employers suddenly increase a woman's wages when she identifies as male, though, so maybe you should fight for the right of transmen to be treated like men instead of focusing on transwomen.

fascicle if you don't think that women's rights are eroded by being imprisoned by men, if you don't think risk of rape and pregnancy are unacceptable and this is self evident, there's nothing I can say that will persuade you.

WRT Coleen, as far as I know Coleen has never "transitioned" so this is a picture of them. I am aware that several pro trans sources have tried to minimise this case (understandably - it sets their cause back considerably) but reading the original police report filed, the girls were disturbed to see a naked man in their shower.

WRT Gabrielle - she may have been taking hormones, she may have had GRS, neither of which changes the fact she benefits incredibly from male height and male musculature. The evidence is right there that regardless of any transitioning she is still male.

Intersex individuals are not trans. Trans men is another issue altogether, but I've never come across TM aggressively pushing an agenda which is harmful to others.

Pangurban1
People who are of one sex, saying they are the other sex, are not intersex people. Trying to conflate the two still does not make transgender people intersex.

Just wondering whose post(s) you are addressing here? If mine, then that's not something I've claimed.

What better descriptor do you have for gender reassignment, that would be acceptable to all? Or do you believe that the surgery, as well as the term, should not exist?

HermioneWeasley
WRT Coleen, as far as I know Coleen has never "transitioned" so this is a picture of them. I am aware that several pro trans sources have tried to minimise this case (understandably - it sets their cause back considerably) but reading the original police report filed, the girls were disturbed to see a naked man in their shower.

It's odd that you should choose a 'male' picture of Colleen when there are others available.

As for 'pro trans sources' mimimising the case, from the information I've read, you are using inaccurate information that grossly distorts the incident.

This is the version of the police report I found:
www.adfmedia.org/files/evergreenpolicereport.pdf

Please quote the part that references girls seeing a naked man in their shower.

From what I can see, the police report makes clear that Colleen was observed in the sauna. According to the website of the facilities in question, this is an area where under 18s are not permitted (see rule 4):

evergreen.edu/reccenter/rules.htm

The girl, whose mother complained to the police, was 17 and not eligible to be in the sauna.

Cosmetic surgery does not 'reassign' anyones sex. It is cosmetic surgery on your genitals or fake breasts being inserted in your chest. All this is cosmetic surgery. Indeed, all that seems to be involved in in so called 'gender reassignment' surgery from all these high profile Transwomen is some silicone inserted in the chest area and flicking hair around/ or wigs while engaging in highly pretentious exaggerated mannerisms, while caked in make-up.

As for the "Or do you believe that the surgery, as well as the term, should not exist?"

I never said I think cosmetic surgery should be banned.

If people who were born and have gone through puberty as a male, with male genitals, male bone structure and muscles and male pattern violence like Tara Hudson is allowed into women's spaces, then I'm sure a case could be made for any man to admitted likewise, irrespective of what they call themselves. Disregarding any cosmetic (fake) enhancement, they make the same case for all men, not just transwomen to be regarded by the law as women. If you have developed as a man and had some cosmetic alterations to your chest, that does not mean you are living as a woman.

Please quote the part that references girls seeing a naked man in their shower.

The first paragraph of the report narrative says the girls mother complained that he was naked in the locker room.

With regards to surgery.

I had my breast reduced. I was an hour glass shape. Big boobs, small waist big hips.

I now appear pear shape. But I am not. My appearance has been altered but my body is hour glass.

I am a weightlifter and when working out my diet for training towards certain goals. I still have to use the format for people with an hour glass shape (it does make a difference) not pear.

Sure very changed how I appear. It's hasn't changed anything else

And why was he in the sauna with his legs wide open.

I have used many saunas and never seen women do this.

We should do that. I don't think the trans"women" would like it, as they'd be imprisoned with other males, the exact thing they aim to avoid.

Only up to p1, but the irony of this statement was not lost on me. Transwomen want a privelege they deny biological women by their presence.

fascicle you are right - that there were 2 police complaints of Colleen being naked in the locker room and another of them exposing their male genitalia in the sauna and NOT the shower section of the locker room completely undermines my argument.

Thanks for posting the police report setting out the details of Colleen's multiple acts of indecent exposure in the locker room and NOT the showers - goodness do I feel foolish now.

Only up to p1, but the irony of this statement was not lost on me. Transwomen want a privelege they deny biological women by their presence.

Yes. The interesting thing is that they will only have a short time of enjoying freedom from male company. As soon as there are two transwomen in a prison cell, they are back to where they started - imprisoned with males.

Though if you assume that their goal is not to be free from male violence, but to have access to women to rape them, then they will be happy in women's prisons as long as there are women there, and may even enjoy the company of other males transwomen.

Imprisoning them with other transwomen would thwart both those goals, it would only give them freedom from "transphobia", so if that was what they wanted, transwomen would campaign for special transwomen wards in men's prisons.

By the way, women suffer more from being raped by males than transwomen do. Science says so: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1935004

(Okay, what it says is that women of reproductive age are more traumatized by vaginal rape than by any other form of rape, and that this is not the case for postmenopausal women, so it logically follows that IF transwomen are psychologically identical to women, they would be less traumatized by any rape possible than women)

So, why then should transwomen be more entitled to separation from males than women?

Enjolrass
The first paragraph of the report narrative says the girls mother complained that he was naked in the locker room.

Hermione's version of the story is that the girls were disturbed to see a naked man in their shower which is why I asked for a reference to the showers in the police report.

The sauna was located in the locker room. The police report references a student notifying a swimming coach (Tiffany Wright) that there was a man in the sauna, which is where the swimming coach found/'confronted' Colleen Francis.

The correct details make a significant difference to the story (and any implications it might have for the rights of transwomen/women).

Hermione
Thanks for posting the police report setting out the details of Colleen's multiple acts of indecent exposure in the locker room and NOT the showers - goodness do I feel foolish now.

What on earth are you talking about? The police report details one incident. Actually, since you believe the report is about multiple acts of indecent exposure, perhaps you could supply the time and date of each incident from the report.

The report doesn't detail one incident.

It's quite vague. The mother complained her dd saw him naked in the locker room.

A phone call was received the day after by someone who said they dealt spoke to colleen about an incident in the sauna.

It doesn't confirm that it was one or two incidents. Or confirm if when the mother said locker room, she meant the sauna.

And to be honest I don't care. No one should be sat with their legs wide open in a place like this.

A minor should not be confronted by someone with a penis. If you just don't Get why that's intimidating, then you just don't get it.

But that's doesn't stop it being true.

www.theguardian.com/film/2015/nov/23/zoolander-2-accused-of-transphobia-over-benedict-cumberbatch-character

Benedict Cumberbatch depicting a transgender person is being called the modern equivalent of blackface by LGBT activists. They say the depiction is an over the top, cartoonish mockery and endorses harmful and dangerous perceptions of the community.

Oh, the irony.

Whether the underage girls saw Colleen Francis's exposed penis isn't the only issue either. Girls and women shouldn't have to get changed in front of a person with a penis, however that person self identifies.
If the changing rooms/showers are communal they should be single sex.