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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think a great way for a transgender person to avoid going to the wrong gender prison

197 replies

wasonthelist · 08/12/2015 12:15

Would be not to headbutt a barman.

OP posts:
HermioneWeasley · 08/12/2015 20:53

enjolrass

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2014/06/19/all-the-things-you-cant-deny-title-ix-trans-women-and-the-reality-of-neutrality/

TW are competing against women in sport. Look at this photo of 6foot+ ex marine Gabrielle, and tell me which of these things is not like the other?

This is especially important in the U.S. where sports scholarships are an important source of educational funding for women.

To think a great way for a transgender person to avoid going to the wrong gender prison
VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 21:37

@Jessicas: Smile

Hermione, yes, and I am quite sure, trans"women" also count as "women" when it comes to other funding opportunities and scholarships that were traditionally for women only.

It is the most insidious backlash against feminism ever.

HermioneWeasley · 08/12/2015 21:52

vestal I was quite disturbed by cigar's post the other day that the last women's group she went to was majority male -either TW or "non binary" men (who looked, sounded and acted just like any other men, apparently). Since they voted on issues, they outnumbered the women.

I don't know what this group is or what their purpose is, but even if it's very small, that had got to be taking resources and opportunities away from women.

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 21:59

The one where the group was, allegedly, women-only? It is pretty shocking.

Feminist groups I have been at usually contained about a quarter or a third males, of all varieties, including trans. And that was groups that were open to everyone who wanted to attend.

So ... is it possible that those males get an extra thrill out of getting into women's only spaces?

Or maybe it is a sign that feminism has effectively been taken over by transwomen, and is now advocating for transrights instead of women's rights.

BrushtheHeat · 08/12/2015 22:34

Hermione thanks for posting that article. It manages to articulate a lot of how I feel about how the rights of mtf transpeople are trumping the hard won achievements of born women. This is an area that I am still learning about and this blog is so informative.
I suspect I'm far from alone in feeling unqualified and afraid to speak my mind at times. I'm a mature student at uni and in a discussion re gender I was ridiculed and Hmm -ed by the majority of the rest of the students who vehemently promoted the idea of gender fluidity and trans-rights when I tried to explain my feelings. I guess they like being forward thinking and right on.
When examining what it meant to be a woman, The lecturer asked out of a class of 30 who would accept his right to identify as a woman if he came out as trans. I was the only one who voiced any apprehension to the idea and the consequences of his being extended the right to occupy female spaces. I find that scary. I can't put.my finger on it, but it bothers me and I hate that the responsibility is yet again on women to pander to the needs and desires of men. Sorry for the tangent. I've found this thread really illuminating.

VagueIdeas · 08/12/2015 22:35

That photo pisses me off every time I see it.

I can't believe that an (older) biological male is allowed to compete against women who are barely (or perhaps not even) out of their teens. It's not just the sex discrepancy, but age and size too.

Dipankrispaneven · 08/12/2015 22:52

YABU. You could just as logically say that, if women object to being in prison with a transwoman, a great way to avoid that is not to commit the crime that results in them being sent there.

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 23:32

YABU. You could just as logically say that, if women object to being in prison with a transwoman, a great way to avoid that is not to commit the crime that results in them being sent there.

... only that a lot of women are in prison for owning drugs or similar nonviolent offenses, that are not subject to decisions in the way headbutting a barman is.

Not that it matters. Males belong into prisons for males. This is very obvious common sense, and until recently, no one had a problem with that.

Yes, men's prisons are dangerous. The problem is that it's not the prison itself that rapes the inmates, it is other inmates.

Sending males to women's prison will just make women's prison just as dangerous. As soon as there are two notoriously violent trans"women" in there, they are at danger from each other, so nothing has been achieved, except that now all the women there are in danger of being raped and impregnated. Is that what you want to achieve?

noeffingidea · 09/12/2015 00:00

Regarding transwomen in women's sports, lrts not forget the Iranian women's soccer team. At one point 8 out of the 11 players were preop transwomen
So one of the few precious opportunities open to women in Iran has already been taken away from them. Not to mention how unfair it was on their opponents.

VestalVirgin · 09/12/2015 00:58

So one of the few precious opportunities open to women in Iran has already been taken away from them. Not to mention how unfair it was on their opponents.

This madness could be mitigated if other countries just wouldn't accept a "women's" soccer team that consists mostly of males and/or just allowed them to compete against their male soccer teams.

Everyone made fun of the DDR's female swimmers who took medication that made them look like males in order to perform better ... and now actual males are allowed to compete against women and no one is allowed to make fun of it.

Darrowisred · 09/12/2015 07:05

Watch out for her on Celebrity Big Brother or I'm a celebrity...

venusinscorpio · 09/12/2015 07:56

I very much fear you're right, Darrow.

Enjolrass · 09/12/2015 08:39

herimone

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. There is so many things wrong with that story.

It's not ok.

I am kick boxer, my dd is a kick boxer. No way would this be allowed at competition. If someone tried to put dd up against someone who is biologically male, I would kick off. And if that person insisted on fighting, (claiming discrimination) with my dd he would have go through me first.

Not a fucking chance.

HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2015 08:49

Enjolrass I agree, it's ridiculous and disgusting and I don't know why it's allowed, but it's not only allowed but celebrated as a triumph of inclusion.

Have you heard of Fallon Fox - TW boxer. Was mediocre as a male athlete but oddly enough has won every fight except one against women. It's stomach turning male violence against women as paid entertainment.

Enjolrass · 09/12/2015 09:00

Yes I have heard of Fallon Fox. When I was speaking about competing I was actually think on the world stage, such as olympics etc.

Tbh MMA is a free for all anyway. Stomach churning. It won't be long, imo, before men and women fight together anyway.

I train with female world and European champions. So does dd. We are far from snowflakes.

I also fight men at the dojo. But in comps it's far more intense. Which is why they don't pit girls against boys.

The education aspect pisses me off. Anything to take away an opportunity for women and give it to someone with a penis.

I am really quite angry about this.

This is where I am confused.

I am also a body builder, no competitions, just because I like it. I wear tracksuit bottoms and t-shirt to the gym. My male training partner also wear tracksuit bottoms and a t-shirt.

If he declared that he was now a woman at the gym, should he be allowed access to the women's changing rooms. We both wear the same to the gym. The clothes are unisex. So he may not look like a woman at the gym but is wearing the same as many women.

How can that be ok?

Again, I actually have no problem changing in front of men. I do it at the dojo (very small), everyone is respectful and looks the other way. No lewd comments. We are all just team mates.

However not all women feel that way and in the changing rooms are a women's space. It's not ok...at all.

HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2015 09:08

enjolrass re changing rooms - yes.

This is Coleen Francis who identifies as a woman. Coleen decided they needed to use the showers at the gym at the same time each week that th teenage girls swim team met. The teenage girls were understandably disturbed to see a naked man in their showers, but coleen's right to use the fan cities of their choice was upheld, and the teenage girls had to squeeze into thr disabled cubicle.

Look at what has just happened with Lila Perry - is a teenage male who wears skirts and has insisted on using the girls locker rooms (despite bring offered gender neutral Space). Hundreds of the students protested and were ignored

To think a great way for a transgender person to avoid going to the wrong gender prison
noeffingidea · 09/12/2015 09:19

If men (in the guise of being self identified transwomen) being allowed into women's changing rooms becomes a regular thing I think it will probably drive some women away, and they will stop doing sports.
My swimming pool has a unisex changing village and cubicles/individual showers must be used. It doesn't bother me at all, even so I noticed they had to put a sign up banning mobiles. (there is a small gap at the bottom of the cubicles) so I don't know if there has been any trouble.
It seems as if some men (hopefully a very small minority, and not genuine transgendered people) really resent women having any kind of space to ourselves and feel the need to take it over and push women out. Hence the annual whinging about the race for life being sexist. How dare we have anything for ourselves, especially something so successful.

Enjolrass · 09/12/2015 09:21

So how can anybody argue that women's rights are not being eroded by trans rights?

Starting to worry it's only a matter of time before dd is expected to fight someone biologically male.

Luckily for us, she also fights boys and wins in the dojo.

Tbh I think I would be kicking off and dd (who also feels this whole thing is eroding her rights) would be probably be willing to get on the ring and had the person their arse. She can happily hold her own against men and boys. She hasn't refused a fight yet and I am not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

noeffingidea · 09/12/2015 09:28

How old is your daughter Enjolrass? My son used to do tang so do and boys and girls were only allowed to spar each other upto the age of 8. After that it was divided by sex.
This was a while ago, and no one claimed they were identifying as the opposite gender though. I suspect the instructors would have given them short shrift if they'd tried it on.

Dipankrispaneven · 09/12/2015 09:40

only that a lot of women are in prison for owning drugs or similar nonviolent offenses, that are not subject to decisions in the way headbutting a barman is.

How is committing a non-violent offence "not subject to decisions"?

Yes, men's prisons are dangerous. The problem is that it's not the prison itself that rapes the inmates, it is other inmates.

And that includes women attacking other women in women's prisons, including by sexual and penetrative assaults.

Sending males to women's prison will just make women's prison just as dangerous. As soon as there are two notoriously violent trans"women" in there, they are at danger from each other, so nothing has been achieved, except that now all the women there are in danger of being raped and impregnated. Is that what you want to achieve?

But if there are two notoriously violent women in a women's prison, they will be a danger to each other and other women. The one thing they cannot do is to impregnate other women. So are you OK with transwomen who are infertile or impotent?

Surely the point is to have procedures in place to keep all prison inmates safe?

HermioneWeasley · 09/12/2015 09:47

enjolrass I believe the argument is that anyone who identfies as a woman is exactly what a woman is so there is no erosion of "women's" rights.

cleaty · 09/12/2015 10:14

About 15% of men who identify as women, have genital surgery. About 3% of women who identify as men have genital surgery.

fascicle · 09/12/2015 10:53

HermioneWeasley
Interesting that the Culturallyboundgender article persists in referring to transwomen using the 'he' pronoun.

I think it's misleading to selectively discuss examples of transwomen in sport without referencing relevant guidelines and legal provisions e.g. in the UK, the Equality Act 2010 and prior to that the Gender Recognition Act 2004 include provision for ensuring fair competition in sport. Restrictions can be be applied to transwomen in certain sports and competitions where they would be considered to have an unfair advantage.

Enjolrass
So how can anybody argue that women's rights are not being eroded by trans rights?

There's inevitably a period of adjustment whilst the rights of trans people are established and accommodated. But ultimately I don't see why women's rights should be affected.

Enjolrass · 09/12/2015 10:54

noeffing She is 12.

Points is mixed sparing. Continuous is single sex.

Although I choose to do both with men and women.

Their insurance allows it, I checked. Neither of us have been hurt so we are happy with it.

Rules vary dojo to dojo. The main thing I love about our dojo is how respectful the kids and how they all get on so well.