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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think a great way for a transgender person to avoid going to the wrong gender prison

197 replies

wasonthelist · 08/12/2015 12:15

Would be not to headbutt a barman.

OP posts:
VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 15:11

Is it even possible to change your gender

I am hoping that it is possible to abolish gender, i.e. the societal expectations, which would then change my gender to "none".

As to transwomen being able to behave as if they were brought up as girls ... well, it might be possible if they put a lot of effort into getting that female socialisation they missed.

However, I don't see them doing that. Headbutting barmans is not ladylike behaviour by any standard. An actual woman would have to fight her socialisation to do that.

I am in favour of putting people together with those of their own sex, as determining whether someone committed a "male-type" crime would produce tons of paperwork.
(Obviously, women who raped women should be locked up away from all other prisoners in women's prison, for safety reasons, regardless of their identification.)

Hihohoho1 · 08/12/2015 15:11

Well quite op.

Nasty vicious unpleasent person.

As ever the rights of the prisoner trump the rights of the victims.

I couldn't give a shit what bits the bastards who trashed my elderly parents house have. I just want them punished.

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 15:12

Really I have yet to see a valid reason to not put a trans woman into a female prison.

If that is what you think, are you then in favour of getting rid of sex segregation altogether and just throwing the 10% female criminals in with the 90% male criminals?

Do you honestly not see any problem with that?

Christina22xx · 08/12/2015 15:19

she made a mistake and shes paying for it but its unfair for her to go to a male prison as with any trans woman.

OurBlanche · 08/12/2015 15:22

Really I have yet to see a valid reason to not put a trans woman into a female prison.

That sentence simply does not compute. There are many valid reasons on both sides of this argument. To state otherwise is disingenuous, at best.

Given that, it seems, that many trans men and women choose not to have lower body surgery, that GIRE advise that genital surgery should not be regarded as inevitable there are many people for whom a wide range of places, institutions etc become an absolute minefield.

It s not wrong for a pre op trans woman to want to use all sorts of women's facilities.

It is equally not wrong for any (sorry in advance, I hate the term) cis woman to feel uncomfortable, to object, to that happening.

Neither side of that argument is 100% right or wrong. Nor is either side of the trans male equivalent.

We don't need more bold statements of right and wrong. We need more knowledge, more normalising of either trans situation. Leading to a more effective use of that wide range of facilities that makes any and all people feel safe.

Simplistic statements don't help. They just make the gap between the 2 black and white perspectives larger.

OurBlanche · 08/12/2015 15:23

Sorry Christina, she hasn't made a mistake , she appears to be a recidivist, violent person. That is another simplistic statement.

OurBlanche · 08/12/2015 15:25

Aaargh, posted too soon.

And she was sent to a woman's prison... had she bothered with the paperwork she would have been sent there in the first place.

And no, it isn't complex or very expensive.

Enjolrass · 08/12/2015 15:29

It does a phenomenal job of ignoring the fact that natural born women can also be violent and dangerous to other women.

of course women can be dangerous to other women.

But you can't deny that men (not all) commit far more violent crime against women, than women do.

Christina22xx · 08/12/2015 15:34

most trans women do get surgery because it is simple in terms of surgery, its trans men who rarely change because the surgery is really complex and way more expensive, they have to build rather then tuck, if that makes sense.

IoraRua · 08/12/2015 15:37

No Vestal, because as I see it, there is no danger in putting a trans woman and cis woman together in a prison. With men and women you run into relationship/sex problems - there's less lgbt people, so that's less likely to be a problem in womens prisons.

Blanche, I don't agree, I feel a womens prison is safer and more appropriate for a trans woman. If the trans woman was dangerous to women then that needs to be managed by prison staff - as they would if a cis woman who was dangerous to women was there.

And Enjol, yes, but I don't believe that trans women are men. If they're dangerous to women obviously that needs to be carefully managed, doesn't equate to every trans woman being dangerous.

IoraRua · 08/12/2015 15:41

Agh meant to edit - no immediate danger if the trans woman doesn't have a history of violence. If it's a case of someone who has been violent then that needs to be carefully looked at - just as if you put a male rapist (ie of men) into a male prison.

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 15:41

No Vestal, because as I see it, there is no danger in putting a trans woman and cis woman together in a prison. With men and women you run into relationship/sex problems

And what makes you think this would not be the case with trans"women"? The cotton ceiling? (If you don't know what the "cotton ceiling" is, google it, it might make you reconsider your opinions.)

Apart from the danger, do you think women should have to share showers with bepenised people?

OurBlanche · 08/12/2015 15:45

You may feel that. You have your belief, others may disagree, Iora

As I said, neither perspective is 100% wrong. So I am not really sure which part of my post you are disagreeing with!

And there already exists a way that any trans person can use any gendered facility they choose... this violent person chose not to avail herself of it.

I have to admit, if I were in a changing room and a pre-op trans woman came in, and went about her business as all the other women would, naked in the middle of the changing room, I would feel very uncomfortable - I would probably complain. Why wouldn't I? It would be unusual, discomforting and potentially quite a scary thing to experience.

Double standards you say? Hypocrite? Nasty bitch? Well yes, you are probably right. But my discomfort would not be unusual or wrong.

IoraRua · 08/12/2015 15:47

Basic probability Vestal.
There are more straight people than those lgbt, yes? So it's not difficult to then assume that in a mixed prison, there'll be more straight sex/couples than gay.

As for the showers, I'm not a fan of communal showers in prisons anyway. I would imagine guards wouldn't let trans women with penises shower with others anyway (Im friends with a prison guard, this was his opinion).

Enjolrass · 08/12/2015 15:48

And Enjol, yes, but I don't believe that trans women are men. If they're dangerous to women obviously that needs to be carefully managed, doesn't equate to every trans woman being dangerous.

but how do you know that?

That's why I asked if there were any crime stats regarding trans. If trans people commit crime at the same rate as the gender they were born as.

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 15:49

Blanche, I don't agree, I feel a womens prison is safer and more appropriate for a trans woman.

Why would a women's prison be safer for trans"women" if males are not at all dangerous and the only thing to be concerned about would be consensual sex (which is going on in male prisons all the time, between so-called cis men.)

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 15:50

I would imagine guards wouldn't let trans women with penises shower with others anyway (Im friends with a prison guard, this was his opinion).

And what if prison guards were forced to let trans women shower with women because trans women demand to be treated just like actual women?

IoraRua · 08/12/2015 15:51

And Blanche, hypocrite, nasty bitch, no those are your words - I wouldn't use them even though I disagree with it.

I disagree with a lot of the attitudes I see around trans people, it reminds me of the fear of gay people in the past. I don't support it.

They're free to have their opinion - but what I was saying to you is that I dont agree with those views, I don't see trans people as inherently dangerous.

OurBlanche · 08/12/2015 15:54

I hadn't espoused those views, Iora. Which is why I tried to explain a bit more.

You seem to be arguing with me as though I have voiced something other than a call for a more measured and less entrenched view - from both sides.

IoraRua · 08/12/2015 15:57

Enjol - I believe it'd be discriminatory as hell for me to say "trans women are fundamentally dangerous to women". So I don't do that. I see no evidence for it.

Vestal because as many posters have said on here, statistically men commit more violence. And actually I was thinking along the lines of jealousy issues, rape...

I actually wouldn't have a huge problem with showers with trans and born women together personally but I don't think it will happen.

IoraRua · 08/12/2015 15:58

I'm not really arguing with you Blanche, you quoted me first and I replied. I'm just saying I don't agree with those views.

OurBlanche · 08/12/2015 16:00

Smile the power of the written word to discombobulate!

Enjolrass · 08/12/2015 16:02

I believe it'd be discriminatory as hell for me to say "trans women are fundamentally dangerous to women". So I don't do that. I see no evidence for it.

To deny it without evidence is discriminatory.

No one is saying all trans women are dangerous. However if they commit violent crime at the same rate as men, then they are not safe to be in a women's prison. Especially when they still have a penis, have committed violent crime and haven't done the paperwork to classify them as female because they couldn't be arsed and think it's should be someone else's job

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 16:06

Vestal because as many posters have said on here, statistically men commit more violence. And actually I was thinking along the lines of jealousy issues, rape...

And why do you think that once a man decides to identify as a woman from now on, he suddenly becomes less violent?

Why do you think would that happen? Do you think a desire to wear frilly dresses is inevitably connected to lower violence levels?

You are contradicting yourself. Either males commit more violence, or they do not. If they do, then women are not safe with trans"women" in women's prison, if they don't, then trans"women" are perfectly safe in men's prisons.

Anniegetyourgun · 08/12/2015 16:06

I don't see trans people as inherently dangerous.

Does anyone? I certainly haven't seen anyone say so on this thread. They'd be shouted down if they did - it would be a ludicrous point of view.

However, some people are inherently dangerous and some of those people are trans (of whom a few, I dare to suggest, may be pretending to be for their own purposes... but I see no reason not to assume the majority are genuine). The cases in discussion here are violent criminals who are still physically men. That does put them in rather a different category, don't you think?