Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think a great way for a transgender person to avoid going to the wrong gender prison

197 replies

wasonthelist · 08/12/2015 12:15

Would be not to headbutt a barman.

OP posts:
OurBlanche · 08/12/2015 13:12

She was on Victoria Derbyshire this morning, it is on the iPlayer if you are interested.

She made very little sense and I was a bit dismayed that a) she was not a better speaker for transgender issues b) she was let off a bit, no particularly deep probing about crime and her current exploitation of the financial benefits of having a penis, but mostly because her reason for thinking the gender recognition certificate was, to paraphrase, "I don't want to do it, no, I don't. Let someone else do the paperwork, not me!"

I suspect the 150,000 + people who signed the petition to have her moved to a female prison will be somewhat aghast, should they see this interview.

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 13:13

If she isn't planning on having it removed because that's her selling point, is she really transgender?

I believe that "she" like a lot of other famous trans"women" is really an autogynephile.

If one is getting erections from the thought of being perceived as female, then one doesn't want to have one's penis removed, obviously.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 08/12/2015 13:14

I don't know what the BBC is thinking of tbh. How lovely for Tara's victim to see his attacker feted like this.

Heebiejeebie · 08/12/2015 13:15

People go to prison on remand and may be subsequently found not-guilty

RickRoll · 08/12/2015 13:23

Also I think it is twisted that they are using a young, photogenic case like Tara Hudson (who is nonetheless a violent thug), to represent all of the 'transgender' prisoners in prison.

The BBC claim 'two transgender prisoners have died in prison recently'.

This was the last one:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-34972221

"Latham was sentenced to life imprisonment in 2001 for an attempted murder.
She was later handed further life sentences for the attempted murders of a prisoner at HMP Frankland, in Durham, in 2007 and of a fellow patient at Rampton secure hospital, in Nottinghamshire, in 2011.
The BBC understands she was in the early stages of changing her gender."

So a violent, psychopathic MAN committed THREE attempted murders in 2001, 2007 and 2011

In 2001 he tried to murder Sarah Smith, using mercury news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/4460544.stm

In 2007 he tried to kill an inmate at HMP Frankland

In 2011 the attempt to kill was by stabbing an inmate at Rampton secure hospital in the neck with scissors.

www.mentalhealthlaw.co.uk/R_v_Brown_(formerly_Latham)_(2015)EWCA_Crim_1328,(2015)_MHLO_100

He was known as 'Edward Latham', then changed his name to Brown, and had also planned to kill his own solicitor.

So as far as the BBC are concerned this person, who had previously changed their name, and was basically a completely fucked up psychopath with very little to live for, is just 'another transgender suicide', even though he had spend 10+ years trying to murder people as a man, and had previously changed his name as a man (presumably an attempt to erase his depraved identity, which failed, hence going further and 'becoming a woman').

Fuck you BBC, and fuck your agenda of trying to get these violent psychopaths into women's prisons.

OurBlanche · 08/12/2015 13:25

Not 9 times, after admitting guilt, Heebie.

There obviously needs to be a reappraisal of the current system. But to try to use this specific individual as a 'point of debate' will only exacerbate the anti groups and alienate many others, like myself, who would like t see the issues debated properly, with some sensible outcomes.

She is in no way representative of any of the trans people I have met and worked with.

Hygge · 08/12/2015 13:29

There was a recent internet opinion article from the Guardian (I think) on sending transgender women to male prisons, because of the suicides of Vicky Thompson and Joanne Latham.

I think any prisoner in any prison needs to be protected, and prisoners at risk of harm from others or self harm need support, but I don't think a knee-jerk reaction of opening up a women's prison to anyone who identifies as female is the answer.

This is an issue that needs to be looked at carefully and sensibly, for the sake of all involved.

We know that Tara Hudson has a record of violent crimes, and in this most recent one attacked a man so badly that he needed medical and dental treatment costing hundreds of pounds. We also know that her idea of living as a woman includes sex work with her own fully functioning penis, which she boasts about online.

That to me indicates that her identity as a woman is applied as it suits her, and her imprisonment with men or women and the safety of everybody needs to be carefully considered. He working life needs to be discussed because it's relevant to the argument that she has lived as a woman for years.

I don't know what Vicky Thompson did to be sent to prison. I'm sorry she wasn't protected in the right way to prevent her suicide.

Joanne Latham was in prison for three attempted murders. Her victims were men. Two of those murder attempts happened while she was in prison and then a secure hospital.

She had only recently identified herself as a woman, and only changed her name this summer.

I don't think sending her to a women's prison or secure hospital would have achieved anything towards keeping her safe. And as she has managed to commit two very violent crimes against men while serving her sentences, I doubt the women in prison with her would have been any safer.

Sadly I think her issues went far deeper than being imprisoned with men or women, or identifying with men or women. Reading about her crimes gives the impression that she was a risk to herself and to those she was imprisoned with regardless of their sex or gender.

She had attempted to poison her flatmate with mercury, stabbed her third victim in the neck, I can't remember what she did to her second victim. I don't believe that any prisoner would have been safe with Joanne Latham because of her past crimes. When she wanted to harm the people she was imprisoned with, she found a way. And when she wanted to harm herself, again, sadly, she found a way.

But it's important to note that she hadn't asked to be sent to a woman's facility, and that in her case there is no women only facility suitable for her because of the danger she posed to everybody. Arguing for a women's prison in her case is letting her down as well, I think, because there's nothing to say she would have been less of a danger to herself or anyone else in a women's prison. She sounds like a troubled person, and I hope she is at peace now, but she was a danger to everyone if you consider her crimes and her determination to commit them.

It's important to make that known because hiding facts like this doesn't help the discussion, or achieve the right conclusion.

It's also important to talk about the crimes committed, it's important to talk about lifestyle and whether or not someone is working as a prostitute with a fully working penis. It's important to recognise that any prison may not be the best place for people like Joanne Latham because they are a danger to everyone, and that secure hospital's might be falling short on protecting inmates/patients too. It's important to think about the risks posed to everybody concerned, and the problems that might arise.

Because this issue isn't going to go away, and it needs to be tackled effectively with the best result for all prisoners, not just the ones making the news but with details glossed over.

We need to get this right for everybody's sake, not rush something through that may cause further harm to someone else.

Hygge · 08/12/2015 13:30

It took me so long to type that that RickRoll has said it better than me.

Enjolrass · 08/12/2015 13:31

So Tara wants to be a woman, but not enough to fill in some paperwork?Confused

WoodHeaven · 08/12/2015 13:54

So if we agree and say 'let's put people in the prison according to their gender'
We will have transwomen in women prisons and....
Trans men in men prisons.

Now I have to ask, will the transmembrane be safe in all make prison?
How many of them do you think will be murdered/taped/commit suicide?
Are their life less important than the ones of transwomen that we never talk about the consequences fur transmen too? And what do they think? Do transmen want to be in man prison too? (I suspect not tbh!)

WoodHeaven · 08/12/2015 13:58

Bugger with the autocorrect on the phone..
Hope you can understand what the heck I wanted to say.

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 14:02

Are their life less important than the ones of transwomen that we never talk about the consequences fur transmen too?

Why, of course the transwomen (males) are more important than the transmen (females).

Welcome to patriarchy!

Do transmen want to be in man prison too? (I suspect not tbh!)

For most, it probably doesn't come up because they are not committing any crimes.

I know of exactly two transmen who are relatively famous. One is an author, the other one is a singer. Both of them have never been in the news - I found out about their transness because they changed their names.

And for those who go to prison ... I don't think anyone wants to be imprisoned with males. Including males.
Though some transmen might opt for male prison out of a sense of chivalry and wanting to spare the women the sight of a "man". Transmen are way more aware of the lived reality of being a woman than trans"women".

SlaggyIsland · 08/12/2015 14:03

Has anyone see this case? Scottish transwoman who (it is alleged) sexually assaulted another prisoner when they were sent to a female prison.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transsexual-vice-girl-says-new-6949786

RickRoll · 08/12/2015 14:15

Fuck the Daily Record too.

That one's an even bigger violent scumbag.

"The court heard she had 21 previous convictions for crimes including dishonesty, disorder, threatening and abusive behaviour, racially aggravated harrassment and sexual offences."

"Katelyn Findlay, a registered sex offender and pre-op transsexual, flew into a drunken rage at witnesses in the Harbour Arts Centre on June 13, berating staff for keeping her waiting and angrily asking: “Is it because I’m a tranny?” Findlay, 20, visited the family-friendly establishment with a friend at around 7.20pm.

The pair took a seat on a sofa near the bar and ordered food, but it wasn’t long before Findlay, already under the influence of drink, began picking a fight with other patrons, challenging a group of men by calling: “What the f* do you think you’re looking at?” At this point, staff noticed that Findlay, who was dressed in revealing short shorts, had her legs up on a stool and her genitalia was almost exposed.

A member of staff then asked her to put her legs down, advising her that there were children present.

Findlay responded with aggression, demanding to know where their food was. When told her food was being prepared, she demanded to know if it was because she was a “tranny” that she wasn’t being served.

An unlucky family then entered the bar, immediately becoming a target for Findlay, who began to shout at the male in the group, saying he was “pure gorgeous” and that she fancied him.

Another customer asked Findlay to watch her language, but she responded by calling her an “ugly old cow” and her husband an “a”.

Both Findlay and her companion were asked to leave, but they only grew more abusive, calling members of staff “fat cow” and saying they “hoped they had HIV”, pausing only briefly between vile comments to give each other high fives.

Promoted stories

Police were called out and the pair were arrested, taken into custody and held to appear at Kilmarnock Sheriff Court the following Monday.

At that time, details were read out of a separate incident, again involving both accused, at Kilwinning Railway Station on June 8.

A 58-year-old woman was working in the kiosk there at around 2.30pm when she was approached by Findlay, who asked: “Are you a transvestite? Have you got a w?” The shocked witness told both Findlay and her companion to leave as she would not be serving them, to which Findlay, a convicted thief, replied: “Well I’m just going to rob you then. I’m just going to throw this cider on you.” Following the incident, British Transport Police officers managed to track down both Findlay and her friend, who falsely gave their names as ‘Shannon Robertson’ and ‘Alesha Dixon’."

"She admitted robbing David Aitken of house keys and a mobile phone Sim card at an address in Airdrie on April 12.

She also admitted resisting arrest and shouting, swearing, spitting at and violently struggling with three police constables on the same date."

Enjolrass · 08/12/2015 14:22

Are there crime stats anywhere?

Do make-female trans commit crime at the same rate as males or as females?

Do female-male trans commit crime at the same rate as male or females?

Or are the rates completely different?

VagueIdeas · 08/12/2015 14:28

I've gathered from reading threads on MN that trans people commit crimes at a rate in keeping with their biological sex, enjolrass

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 14:30

Enjolrass, I read somewhere that FtT and MtT commit crime at the same rate as males.

However, of all the cases that are in the news, all seem to be FtT, so maybe the statistic I saw cited was more about the number of cases in which people were violent, and not the actual extent of that violence. (I know that there are misleading domestic violence statistics floating through the web - they count verbal violence and harmless slaps as violence the same as life-threatening beatings, and therefore get to have a far larger number of female offenders than would otherwise be the case.)

VestalVirgin · 08/12/2015 14:31

Sorry, the news cases are all MtT of course. Got confused there.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 08/12/2015 14:35

well you could apply that to anyone in prison but that is not the issue

the issue is should transwomen be in a woman's prison

no because they are not women

to say they should be protected goes without saying. of course they should be protected have put that before it is pointed out that I don't care if they get attacked or feel vulnerable

everyone in prison should be taken care of physically and mentally

Enjolrass · 08/12/2015 14:36

I honestly don't know where I stand on this.

On one hand let people do what they want

On the other hand, I do feel that it not starting to infringe on women's rights that women have fought so long for. And that's not ok.

What I don't get is if they have a female brain in a mans body...

My is Tara using her male sex organ to earn money

Why do they commit crime at the same rate as non trans men?

What does it feel like to be a woman on a biological level?

I am a woman and can't answer that one. I feel like me.

Headmelt · 08/12/2015 14:39

If they were half as quick to lock up criminals and scammers, our streets would be clear. It is ignorant and dangerous putting a woman in a men's prison whatever the crime.

WoodHeaven · 08/12/2015 14:51

Vestal I agree. This whole situation is the co sequence and the expression of a very patriarchal society.
That's why I think we should shout and scream about the rights of transmen too, ensure that they are as visible as transwomen are because basically the 'rights' of transwomen are very detrimental to transmen and somehow never mentioned.
I would hope that, at least, this could t be tejected by trans people as an issue and would be taken into account (and basically by doing that we and I protect women).

There is a real need to clarify all that stuff about sex and gender and what us society position about it in a way that protect everyone, not just transwomen.

There us and I a need to give voice to the trans people why just get on with their life in their gender. I bet they have a very different pov .....

WoodHeaven · 08/12/2015 14:56

Another question fur me is:
If transmen are committing crimes as per their gender (or rate and type), then does it not make sense to put them together with the gender they exhibit as per their behaviour (or men)?
And how can they say they feel like a woman (or their gender is the one if a woman) if they still behave as her their initial gender?
Is it even possible to change your gender (you can change how you look like but that doesn't make you a man or a woman, not as what your sex is, nor what your gender is)

IoraRua · 08/12/2015 15:02

Am always very intrigued by the argument that the only possible reason for a trans woman to want to be in a womens prison is so she can attack women.
It does a phenomenal job of ignoring the fact that natural born women can also be violent and dangerous to other women.

Really I have yet to see a valid reason to not put a trans woman into a female prison.

thecraftyfox · 08/12/2015 15:06

Headmelt. These individuals are criminals, in these cases all with a lengthy record and use of violence.

It's ignorant and dangerous to put a violent person with a penis in a women's prison.