To think a great way for a transgender person to avoid going to the wrong gender prison

[wasonthelist]

Would be not to headbutt a barman.

If the trans woman was dangerous to women then that needs to be managed by prison staff

If the men are dangerous to trans people then that needs to be managed by prison staff.

If men are dangerous to women then that needs to be managed by prison staff.

Your argument can be used to do away with segregated prisons altogether. Which is pretty much what I don't understand about this whole debate. If it isn't about separating penised people from non-penised people, then why have segregated prisons at all?

There is no evidence currently on this thread suggesting that trans women are generally dangerous to women.
What is claimed without evidence, can be dismissed with no evidence.

It really comes down to whether you see them as primarily men or women. I lean towards them being women.

Yes, because being a trans woman is all about wanting to wear frilly dresses Vestal. Nothing deeper.

Men commit more violence, I see trans women as women meaning they are safer among women. A dangerous trans woman in a prison should be treated as they would a dangerous cis woman.

I see them as women , who also are very strong and have male hormones. Which allows them to be more of a threat.

The same way trans women aren't allowed to compete in sport against women. It's not fair competition

Annie I wouldn't make general rulings based on difficult cases. There can be non violent trans women in prison surely?

Jessica I'd put trans men with men, and trans women with women. Some prisoners need to be treated differently, for their own protection or the protection of others.
Mixed sex prisons - I'd have no issue with if, like I said, I didn't think the sex/rape etc thing would be a problem.

That still misses the pertinent fact that many trans women still have a penis.

That is enough to give many women pause.

And there is nothing wrong with that.

This specific trans woman is violent, repeatedly so. Has a penis, makes a living because of it, and could have been sent to a woman's prison had she bothered to fill out some paperwork.

She undermines many of your points, which is where I started, on page one.

There needs to be a much better, more rounded, less entrenched wider debate. This specific trans woman is not the best start for that debate!

And no one has said definitely about crime rates, yet you are saying trans women are as safe as women, in a confined space with other women. With no evidence.

Who do we risk to find out?

Found a study regarding your question, Enjolrass: journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885%20#pone-0016885-t002

"Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime."

Oh this particular woman sounds awful, Blanche, agreed. But there's many examples of lazy/violent etc people in prison - I wouldn't make a ruling for all men/women/brunettes based on one person.

I am saying I don't automatically presume trans women are inherently dangerous to women Enjol. I've no evidence to do thatn

Men commit more violence, I see trans women as women meaning they are safer among women.

That you see them as women does not make them safer. They are not safe, as the study I linked above proves.

Women, and trans"men" cannot rape and impregnate women. They don't have penises. No matter how violent some might be, the fact remains that they could not do this to a woman even if they wanted to.

Men and transwomen can rape and impregnate women, and it is naive to just assume they won't do it.

And I would like to see what you think being a transwoman is about if it is not about wanting to wear frilly dresses and/or invading women's spaces.

Apparently it is not about getting rid of your penis, nor is it about giving up male-pattern violence.

I am saying I don't automatically presume trans women are inherently dangerous to women Enjol. I've no evidence to do that

I just linked evidence.

And even if I had not, you have no evidence to automatically presume that trans women are NOT dangerous to women.

If trans women want in women's prisons, they should have to prove that they are harmless.

vestal thank you I am going to read it.

lora women in prison are vulnerable and I don't think there should be anyone with a penis in prisons until its proved as a group they are no more dangerous than other women.

And even if I had not, you have no evidence to automatically presume that trans women are NOT dangerous to women.

exactly this but vestal put it better.

Iora if the place in prison fur a transwomen is in a women prison, does it mean that a trauma an should be in a men prison?
Do you think that this transman would be safer in an all make prison than in a women prison???

"There is no evidence currently on this thread suggesting that trans women are generally dangerous to women. "

I don't think we need evidence, in the case of a multiple attempted murderer who 'transitions' while serving life in prison, surely?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-35030241. Tara said a reason for her wanting to be moved away from the Men's Prison, was fear of rape.

So Tara's fear of rape is now more important than all the women's in women's prison fear of rape?

Okay, I shouldn't be surprised. Tara is male, so of course gets priority. But what about the so-called cis men in prison? Do they not deserve protection against rape?

You can judge a society on the way it treats its prisoners.

If she was in fear of being raped...and that was taken as a valid fear......the fact that people are fearful of being raped in prison needs dealing with.

The answer is not to move the person with penis into a women's prison. It's ridiculous.

It is starting to feel like men come first wether they call themselves a man or not. Obviously they shouldn't come first at all, but they still do even when they call themselves women.

It's beyond belief.

Not sure if this has already been posted, but the Guardian reported on this today with no gloss:

"The rules governing how transgender prisoners are treated – and whether they are sent to male or female prisons – are to be reviewed, the Ministry of Justice has announced.

The decision follows the deaths of two women in the past two months who had been sent to all-male jails."

Not a single word in the article to suggest that they might not actually have been, you know, women.

www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/08/rules-transgender-prisoners-male-female-jails-justice-review

Quite apart from the issues of violence and rape, placing people with functioning penises in a prison with women creates a significant risk of pregnancy. For a whole host of reasons, it is mind bogglingly irresponsible for the state to facilitate the conception of a child to two people who are in prison.

iora, so you think that single sex prisons are best so as to reduce the risk of sex and rape? Me too. Putting people with penises in to women's prisons undermines that objective. It increases the risk to the women in that prison. The rights of those women are being undermined and put in second place. And I'm sick of women's rights being put second to the rights of people with penises.

tiggy, I totally agree. And locking women up with people who have penises, putting them at risk of rape and pregnancy is, imo, barbaric. And it clearly shows that the rights of people with penises are more important to society.

Also, there are many men in prison who, on an individual level, do not present a risk to women. They aren't all violent sex offenders. We aren't arguing why a man who is in prison to tax evasion has to put up with the risks of being in a male prison are we? We accept a blanket rule for them.

We aren't arguing why a man who is in prison to tax evasion has to put up with the risks of being in a male prison are we? We accept a blanket rule for them.

Considering that the kind of rich white dude who is likely to be in prison for tax evasion also has a high probability of being an undetected rapist (as that is the sort of man who gets away with rape), I rather approve of the fact that they are not moved to women's prisons.

vestal, I agree! I'm just trying to point out the inconsistency of the opposing argument.