to think it is unacceptable for a 45-year-old man to date girls just out of their teens?

[Werksallhourz]

Please someone tell me that I have not slipped through a rip in the fabric of reality here.

I have an old friend who does not have a partner, and has never had a serious relationship. He's now 45.

I had a conversation with him about looking for a partner, and some of the things he was saying started to sound, to me, very disturbing.

He seems to think that there is no problem with him dating a girl in her early 20s. He says that I am "old-fashioned" for saying it is not really appropriate for a man of his age to date a girl so young.

Just to reiterate: we would be talking about a 45 year old man dating a 21 year old girl.

He also seems to be of the opinion that this is okay because young women look at him on the street because "they fancy him". At this point, I started to get alarmed.

When I suggested that he might be mistaken, he claimed that people think he is a lot younger than his age anyway, that girls in their early 20s can be "very mature", and told me this story about how a young woman looked at him on the bus and how he knew she wanted him to follow her when she went to get off.

Now maybe I could understand all this if my friend looked like a something off the cover of Esquire, but he doesn't. He's in very poor physical health -- in fact, I would go so far as to say he looks terrible.

And we are not talking about someone who has done very well in life in conventional terms either. He now lives in a room in a house-share after losing his flat, and as far as I know, he hasn't worked for years. The last time I visited him at his flat, the place was a state: filthy floors, bin-bags of clothes on the floor, holes in the walls, and a strong fetid smell in the air.

I am starting to suspect that his life circumstances have meant that he has become so removed from normal society that he has become delusional.

But most of all, I have a really foreboding feeling about his attitude that it would be okay for him, at 45, to date a 21-year-old, particularly when he seems to think these young women are checking him out on the street. To me, it seems to indicate something worrying, but I am not sure what it is.

AIBU?

Thank you, everyone, for your responses.

I realise I was being unreasonable about the age difference aspect. My perspective was too influenced by the specific context of my friend, and was clouding my judgement.

There is a huge backstory to my friendship with him, and I can't really go into it without outing myself. Put it this way, the easiest way to describe it in conventional terms would be to say he is like a brother to me.

To answer other points brought up on the thread ...

The flat deterioration seemed to happen quite quickly, and it shocked me because I always though of him as someone who could cope with this aspect of life. The penultimate time I went to his flat before he lost it and had to move, things kinda looked okay. The last time I went, it looked like a slum. I did manage to make some suggestions that he accepted, though they were very basic things such as a toilet really shouldn't be leaking all over the bathroom floor and he needed to get it fixed, and that he needed to clean his sink because it was stained brown. Anything more than this, he rejected.

When it comes to his physical health, he will not listen to anybody -- particularly anyone in the medical profession. I understand why he feels like this, but I can't even get him to accept certain basic truths about his situation: for example, that it might not be a good idea to fast when you have a BMI of under 15 (that is not a typo).

Following on from that, I have been concerned for a while that his ideas and beliefs have become very strange and detrimental to his health and well-being. I suspect he has become so estranged from normal society that he no longer realises how "off-base" he can be.

The thing is that, for a fair amount of the time (maybe about 50%), he is a nice, intelligent, and considerate man, who is a little artistically quirky and unusual. He can be a lovely person. But then, all of a sudden, he will come out with something that is so bizarre, so adrift from reality, that it stuns you. When that happens, almost simultaneously, he turns ... and becomes very aggressive, forceful, argumentative and quite nasty.

To give you an example: we had a big blow-out about 18 months ago after an incident where he insisted that there was a global conspiracy to cover up the fact that the world was flat. He wasn't joking, he wasn't trying to troll me; he actually genuinely believes this.

I know him well enough to know I have to disengage whenever he gets like this. The problem is that it isn't easy. If I say nothing, he will still get argumentative about it, trying to force me to accept his opinion is right -- usually by yelling. If I leave him to it, I will then get a string of emails or text messages and, inevitably, they will descend into saying that I am "ignorant" or "stupid" for not agreeing with him. Sometimes, they get very personal (he has known me for over twenty years, and nothing appears to be off limits when he wants me to agree with his point of view).

Please don't all you mn vipers say that the belief that the world is flat is NBU. If you do, I think my mind will melt.

I think you're right to be concerned OP. There is enough in your last post to suggest that he has a serious mental health condition. Whether you can get him the medical help he needs while he is so delusional is another matter. In my experience (similar situation with 2 male friends) they only got the help they needed after they had deteriorated so much they were sectioned.

I'm no expert but what you've described sounds more like a serious MH problem, maybe some kind of psychosis?

Awful for him but awful for you too having to watch and having any help you can offer rejected.

Hopefully someone else will be able to give you advice on how to help him because if he's not receptive to you or anyone like his doctor I'm not sure what you'd do.

He'd have to be pretty bad to be referred to a MH team without his permission I'd have thought and he's mostly just 'not managing' by the sounds of it.

You sound like a good friend to him. Obviously he has serious MH issues, but I'm not sure what you can do if he doesn't accept help. Does he have any next of kin who could intervene and get him sectioned? If he's massively underweight and unable to take care of himself then he could be in danger.

I've just worked it out and my BMI is 20 at the min, I'd have to lose just under 3 stones to get a BMI of 15, that's really very shocking.

He must be skeletal and can't be eating properly/enough.

Is his weight a byproduct of him not coping or is it deliberate do you think?

Oh, Agent ... it's really bad.

He is about six foot one, and he is emaciated. I've actually never seen anything like it in real life, only on old news reels or pictures of inmates at camps such as Dachau. The back of his iliac crests poke out of the bottom of his back with a good inch or two of protruding bone.

When I last saw him, I had to go into the bathroom to try and gather myself because I knew I had to try and be calm about the situation. He had a courgette and a medium sized potato in the kitchen, and that was it.

He will not listen to anything. I researched the situation and suggested that he might be at the point where he was suffering from "re-feeding syndrome" as he claims he can't cope with substantial foodstuffs.

Woah, did I get a lashing for mentioning that. He seems to be under the impression that if he fasts enough, it will eventually provoke his appetite. So he fasts, and it never does.

The thing is that now I live quite a distance away now, so I can't be "hands-on". And I have a DH and family responsibilities, and a full-time job, and other civic responsibilities, I can't be there to engage in the way that may be necessary.

I don't have a fucking clue what to do about it.

The thing is ... TheHouseontheLane and Bastard on the first page of the thread kinda have a point. Is it any of my business what he chooses to do? He is an adult, after all. Do I just go no contact?

Indeed, is this any of my business really? Do I just let him do what he wants to do, what he chooses to do? Knowing that he is destroying not only his health but any reasonable notion of happiness?

And then you start to get into this spiral of thinking ... well, who are you to judge different values, Werks? Who are you to interfere? Okay, maybe you know that if he carries on like this, he will be dead in five years. They are his choices and you must respect them.

This whole thread started from a conversation I had with him about maybe trying to find a partner -- and, I admit, I thought that talking about finding a partner and what that would realistically entail may be a way to get him to consider reality.

I was trying to talk to him about what kind of women may be available for someone of his age, and what kind of areas such women might inhabit and where he might need to go to meet them, and what he might need to do. But he just came out with these daft notions of dating a 21-year-olds based on his "supposed" interactions on the street and on the bus. He seems to really think that young women in public see and fancy him.

I think after that post that you really need to call the police non emergency line and tell them everything his comments about young women and his emaciation and the state of his lodgings the whole thing. Also tell them about his irrational insistence that the earth is flat and how persistent and angry he gets if confronted.

Five years is too long a timespan here, imo. A BMI of 15 and he fasts -- he could be taken away by the flu.

Your friend sounds rather disturbing tbh.

From the title I came on to say that it's fine, as long as the maturity levels are reasonably similar and both people are genuine about the relationship. I used to share a flat with a very mature 19 yo girl from York and her 40 yo boyfriend- they met at work and resisted it for a bit due to the age difference but then gave it a go and it really worked).

Also think that from a point of view of procreating, there are valid reasons if you're a bit older to couple up with someone closer to their most fertile years. I think that goes equally validly for older women with younger men as in the opposite direction. I know a few women in their late thirties/early forties who have a late child (or a second child once their first is a teenager) with a partner in their mid twenties. The mature/stable outlook, ability to provide a family life/home seemed to be as attractive to the younger men as it often is to younger women.

But again, that is people who have met a partner via work/social circle and hit it off, or online where both parties are totally looking for a partner, rather than dates. Or following people home off the bus.

I think the problem is, there's just not much you can do about him either way. You already stated he doesn't listen to you.

You can try to suggest he see his GP. But at the end of the day, you can't force someone to get MH treatments.

The only options you might have is to detach from the situation.

It all sounds very concerning OP. Like you say he sounds very deluded and lacking in awareness of what behaviour is appropriate.

And to those shrugging it off with the whole 21 is an adult so it's fine; I have met plenty of very vunerable women in their early 20's, yes legally adults but emotionally not so much. They are usually very damaged and are easy prey for older men who lead them to believe they will protect and care for them when in actual fact it results in a spiral of control and emotional abuse at best. Yes I am sure in some cases there can be a genuine love that spans such a large age gap...sadly I am yet to come across such a case.

OP your friend reminds me of 2 men I know. From your first posts a man who the vicar recently banned from our church for following and harassing women in the choir/congregation. He just used to turn up out of the blue, like When I went to to the toilet he'd always be hanging about outside. He just would not take hints, and he was starting to get my DH and my friends DH back up as well as our own. The vicar thankfully told him that he couldn't behave like that, there had been some incident where he'd not listened when another lady had told him she was interested in his affections and he kept following her. The man didn't think he'd done anything wrong so the vicar told him he wasn't welcome anymore. It was hard for the vicar and the church to turn this man away because he too is in a bad way and very lonely. but women's safety should not be compromised. I also feel like my creep radar is working fine and if you get an uneasy feeling about someone then it's probably for good reason.

Your last update reminds me of my BIL, who has recurring MRSA infections due to poor health and hygiene. He too is 45, never married has no food in his flat and is a follower of david Icke. Nothing beats listening to BIL drone on about the moon controlling us, the queen being an alien, mind controlling gases being pumped out over our heads in the sky at night. BIL had a very good job until recently, and he is struggling to get employed. I can't see how he expects to walk into an amazing city job on the salary he was once on looking and acting like he does. The more he is on his own the more weird he has become and DH is having to call him everyday to chivvy him along.

I cannot see BIL getting back from this easily if ever. He's got no clue and before his girlfriends were motivated by money (always dating young women in debt who he'd help financially and they'd bugger off) he's not going to have that anymore.

Your friend sounds quite ill, OP.

But he also sounds quite dangerous to women, and if his behaviour escalated, someone might get hurt

But I can't believe tbe way some posters are minimising this man's behaviour and beliefs. There is something wrong with the attitude towards women this man has expressed. He sees them as objects without their own views. It's an attitude which is typical of men who commit sexual assaults. If he goes on to follow young women whom he thinks "fancy" him, he is stalking. It could get quite serious, and I'm actually a bit shocked that some posters are minimising the danger - for your friend as well as the women.

Agree with all of math's posts but particularly the one about following.

Even if that was a woman his own age, she wouldn't want to be followed by a stranger. Maybe a bit of a chat about the bus timetable or whatever, which could get mildly flirty IF there was a mutual interest. But being followed? No.

He needs professional help as he isn't coping on his own and could be a danger to himself and others. His weight loss and attitude to food as well as his delusional thinking is really worrying. Could you get adult social services involved?

It sounds like adult social services need to be involved here. The bit about women on the street fancying him seems like part of a bigger, scarier picture. It sounds like you've reached the limit of what you can practically do, but it doesn't really sound like he has the capacity to make reasoned decisions about how to look after himself.

If I get anyone official involved, he would kick off big time. And I suspect he would get very nasty indeed and I fear he could try to damage aspects of my life. I don't trust him not to do something like call my work and tell my boss a load of rubbish.

I think it is just the end of the line for me. There's nothing I can do anymore. I have to leave him to it.

The thing is that I keep thinking about those people who are found a long time after they have died or who go missing for years without anyone noticing and people say "How did that happen? Why didn't anyone check? Surely this person once had family and friends?"

Well this is how it happens, isn't it? He did used to have other friends but they stopped inviting him over. I thought it was because they had started families, but now I wonder if their distancing might have been for other reasons as well.

And yes, now some pps have mentioned it, I do think he has significant issues with women, which probably subconsciously fed into my alarm when he was talking about trying to date much younger women.

Somehow, I can't shake off the feeling that he doesn't realise how much time has passed, that it isn't the mid-90s anymore and he isn't in his late 20s. I reckon that feeling also fed into my alarm when he started talking about dating much younger women. It's that general air of being disconnected from reality in lots of different areas that concerns me.

But there is no longer anything I can do, so I guess that's it.

OP, there really is nothing you can do - he is well into the realms of needing professional help. But, he is an adult who can reject professional help, even if it was offered to him on a plate, and it sounds as if he would reject it most strongly. Everyone is entitled to go to hell in the handcart of their own choosing .

I don't think YABU about the age gap. Everyone keeps going on about 19/21 Yr olds finding older men attractive. I just think there is something off about men (and women) from 30 - 50 who only want to be with teenagers or young early 20 somethings. I'd hate for a much older person to be hanging round my 18/21 yr old.

Since you are going to leave him to it anyway, could you inform adult social services after you go NC? That way there is nothing to lose in terms of the friendship. Or are you worried that he might threaten or harass you? Does he know where you live? I know that it's not nice or fair for you to be put in this position but he could die or hurt someone else. In this situation, it is not really his choice whether or not to get help because he is not making rational choices. He needs professional help for his own protection.

It's so difficult if the person's state of mind won't allow them to see they need help.

I thought the poster who suggested contacting his family/friends (sorry, can't find who said it) might be on to something, but you said he doesn't have anyone else, so he really is on his own.

Unfortunately, given how emaciated he is, it might be that which gives him the best possibility of getting help?

His body can't be far off shutting down and you'd hope if he collapses or something that he'll be referred by whoever helps him.

It's weird that it's such a different story coming out in your later posts (not a criticism or anything OP) it shows you really have done what you can for him

Doesn't it sound - to people who know more than me - as if sectioning him is a real possibility? Then maybe he can be helped back to full mental and physical health. Surely OP needs to tell someone what she has told us. Someone who is in a position to actually do something.

It sounds like that to me, Gruntfuttock. I don't know if I know more than you, mind you, but from the description on this thread, it seems to me that this man needs someone or something to take over his life even temporarily, for his own good. I would therefore be inclined to call the police non emergency number at least, to warn them that he would be very confrontational, but not to mince words when describing the state of affairs.

If he were to call your boss, OP, you could reassure him/her that the caller has been sectioned/is in the hands of social services/has had a breakdown/isn't responsible for his actions, whatever. You seem to have become very attuned to this man over the years while other friends have dropped out of his life and I am certain it is because they think he is unstable -- what you said about him here made many people think he was nuts, and you were coming at the problem from a complete tangent at first. If I were you I would trust your boss to come to the same conclusion.

I think the alternative really is that police will contact you after finding your contact details in his home somewhere, and they will have sad news to impart.

Him calling your boss isn't a reason not to do anything.

You simply explain the situation to your boss.

When trying to get help, you tell them he may kick off.

There is every chance he has followed women and was sounding you out to see why you thought. He could be so delusional that he is looking for someone to chat to about it.

Honestly, his behaviour is concerning. The fact that he is targeting younger women is by the by, tbh. He could be dangerous to all women.

He has broken the mathematical rule!

Minimum age to date = half your age + 7

(ie, a 20yo can date a 17yo, a 50yo can date a 32yo, a 80yo can date (!) a 47yo etc)