to think it is unacceptable for a 45-year-old man to date girls just out of their teens?

[Werksallhourz]

Please someone tell me that I have not slipped through a rip in the fabric of reality here.

I have an old friend who does not have a partner, and has never had a serious relationship. He's now 45.

I had a conversation with him about looking for a partner, and some of the things he was saying started to sound, to me, very disturbing.

He seems to think that there is no problem with him dating a girl in her early 20s. He says that I am "old-fashioned" for saying it is not really appropriate for a man of his age to date a girl so young.

Just to reiterate: we would be talking about a 45 year old man dating a 21 year old girl.

He also seems to be of the opinion that this is okay because young women look at him on the street because "they fancy him". At this point, I started to get alarmed.

When I suggested that he might be mistaken, he claimed that people think he is a lot younger than his age anyway, that girls in their early 20s can be "very mature", and told me this story about how a young woman looked at him on the bus and how he knew she wanted him to follow her when she went to get off.

Now maybe I could understand all this if my friend looked like a something off the cover of Esquire, but he doesn't. He's in very poor physical health -- in fact, I would go so far as to say he looks terrible.

And we are not talking about someone who has done very well in life in conventional terms either. He now lives in a room in a house-share after losing his flat, and as far as I know, he hasn't worked for years. The last time I visited him at his flat, the place was a state: filthy floors, bin-bags of clothes on the floor, holes in the walls, and a strong fetid smell in the air.

I am starting to suspect that his life circumstances have meant that he has become so removed from normal society that he has become delusional.

But most of all, I have a really foreboding feeling about his attitude that it would be okay for him, at 45, to date a 21-year-old, particularly when he seems to think these young women are checking him out on the street. To me, it seems to indicate something worrying, but I am not sure what it is.

AIBU?

Tell him to do internet dating!

Nothing will cure him of his delusions quicker. OP, you save your breath to cool your own porridge. He'll just write you off as bitter about being old if you try to help him. Let him find out on his own.

I'd be worried about the women he meets though, that he attributes desires or intentions to them when they aren't there, rather than taking their lack of word or their lack of actions for it.

Reading through this thread I am inclined to think ellbell has a valid point. It does sound that he has possible mental health issues, perhaps because he has been put of work for years. I am not sure how any help could be sought, perhaps others can offer appropriate advice.

I think he is mistaking looks of revulsion for lust...the girl on the bus was probably thinking she was glad to get away...

I think I would have one last go at trying to explain this to him, that someone in his manky state would not attract young woman and he is mistaken if he thinks this. Also that some of his ideas are innapropriate.

I don't see any problem with the age difference. I dated a lot of men in their 30s-50s when I was in my teens/early twenties. I found them interesting and learned a lot from them, and we got to go out on dates and holidays to much nicer places than I would have with men my own age. But I wouldn't have been very interested in a smelly jobless man in a house share, at any age really. It is not the age that is going to put younger women off, but that he doesn't seem to offer much for a prospective partner at all.

It doesn't really matter what his attitude is - he's perpetually single and likely to remain so, with creepy views like that.

I knew a guy who used to claim the only girls he fancied were of various unattainable qualities - "supermodel thin", for example, or "older" - we were in high school, I proper fancied him and I was gutted I wasn't his type ;) Looking back, the only reason he was describing his 'ideal woman' in such unattainable terms was as an excuse to never date anyone, ever. He was gay and didn't come out until some years later.

Basically I think your bloke's just trying to make it sound like he can't find a woman that meets his high, youthful standards, to excuse the fact he's still single, kind of a loser and unwilling/unable to change.

By my reading, the acceptability or otherwise of a 45-year-old man dating a 21-year-old woman is totally irrelevant here.

The problem you have is that your friend is

• 45
• not in a relationship now
• has never had a serious relationship
• unemployed
• has lost his flat
• living in a fetid hovel of a room in a shared house
• in very poor physical heath
• stoops when he walks
• looks terrible
• wears clothes in very bad condition
• has no friends

And yet he say he thinks

• he looks a lot younger than 45 to other people
• young women look at him on the street because they fancy him
• he knows that young women WANT him to follow them off the bus

So there's a massive disconnect between how he actually is and how he apparently perceives himself to be (massively attractive to strangers). And you "have gently tried to say something, but he just gets argumentative."

Two possibilities.

1. He knows he's talking shit, but he clings to his claims for comfort.
2. He really believes his shit, in which case he's kind of lost touch with reality.

Either way you are right to be worried about him, his life sounds empty and lost. Is there any hope of improvement in his life? Can his health improve, can he get a job, save, move back to his own place?

Just an aside - Given your description I think it's entirely possible that young women, among others, look at him in the street - he must cut a somewhat pitiful figure. Is it possible that he misreads pity for attraction, (and just ignores the looks other people cast him)? Is there any reason he is unable to accurately read other people's faces?

The bit about feeling somebody wanted him to follow them is disturbing and deluded, of course.

However it is unrealistic for you to suggest no women in their early twenties fancy older men. I met an ex at 22 when he was 48, we were together nearly five years and almost got married. Very glad I did not in fact marry him, and looking back I am incredulous at how immature (and selfish) he was - but yes, I was hugely attracted to him when things were good between us. He was very handsome in an old fashioned Hollywood star kind of a way. He also had had a road accident as a very young man that left him with some very obvious disabilities and mobility issues, but that certainly didn't put me off.

I went through a phase then of having what I suppose you would term friends-with-benefits situations with a few more MUCH older men. Who were in their fifties and sixties, and were polyamorous with long term partners, some of whom were as young as me or younger. They were not what one would describe as conventionally attractive men, but I had a lot of fun and did a lot of interesting things. Frankly I had some great sex. I was drawn to them for reasons other than a perfect body or chiselled cheekbones.

Don't fancy old men now though, must've got it out of my system

When I was in my early 20s I sometimes found men in their 30s and 40s attractive - but I never dated any. I am glad about that now as I realize I was nowhere near mature enough for it to have been an equal relationship. There is only 4 years between DH and I and that felt just right.

However, I am not saying that just because I wasn't mature enough to handle a relationship with such an age gap that others wouldn't be.

But I must say that as the mother of a 20 year old girl I would be very concerned if she started dating someone in their 40s - even a successful and well-presented man.

Frankly, OP, I think YANBU to be concerned. For your friend as well as for any young women he might pester. He sounds a bit sad and lonely and a very poor prospect for anyone let alone a very young woman.

The most worrying thing is the fact that he thinks that the young woman wanted him to follow her. Although I think it is okay for a 45 year old to go out with someone who is 21 as a one off, I think it is quite creepy that he is specifically interested in dating that age group. I would wonder if he is even more interested in teenagers....

Well he's hardly unique in wanting a much younger girlfriend. My colleague who is in her mid twenties is on a couple of dating sites and despite having a clear upper age limit noted on her profile she gets contacted by men in their 40s all the time. It really annoys her actually. I know it's common for men to want to date someone a bit younger but looking for women twenty years younger seems to be more popular now due to internet dating. Kid in the candy store kind of effect.

It seems like it's only in his head. Let him console himself with the idea, OP, what's the harm? As you describe his circumstances, he is not in a position to marry, or even have a relationship, is he? If he does more than fantasizing about dating 20-year-olds, hopefully the 20-year-olds will take care of themselves and report him to the police (if he has done something offensive).

'It seems like it's only in his head. Let him console himself with the idea, OP, what's the harm?'

I think there's a legitimate concern that the man could be testing out what's going on in his head out loud to the OP, maybe to gague her reaction? Before going onto the next stage, like 'accidentally' following a woman home before doing it deliberately.

It can start off in a very small innocuous way, so he's not actually doing anything and he can justify it in his head, then with hardly perceptible steps he'll move on to the next bit and before you know it he's a danger to women.

Nobody can know whether he'll do that of course, but as the MN advice goes, you should listen to someone if they're telling you what they're like.

Before going onto the next stage, like 'accidentally' following a woman home before doing it deliberately.
There is no law against following someone once ("harassment" requires two occasions at least). If he follows the same young woman twice, she can report him to the police and have a restriction order against him (in which case he'll be locked up if he follows her again). But in this case this is something that will happen between that young woman and this man. The OP has nothing to do with it in any case. (I appreciate it btw that the OP is concerned for him and tries to get him out of his delusion, but as a friend you can only do so much.)

At 21 I suppose they are old enough to make their own decisions but he does sound pretty deluded & a bit creepy to say the least.
I'm not one to judge about age gaps but I personally would never date someone old enough to be my dad! Ew.
Saying that tho, I did have a 'friend' that 'dated' my dad for a while I found it very freaky & disgusting but they didn't see the problem.

Why do you refer to women in their 20's as 'girls'?

The women might not even notice him Iona, and he might not even follow the same person twice.

But what I was saying was really about him and not the women, and how the escalation in his head can go from innocent to predatory in small steps.

He can justify stepping up to the next level because (up until the point that he does something illegal) he hasn't actually done anything (even though what he's doing is paving the way/testing out crossing the boundary).

So him saying a woman fancies him and 'she wanted him to follow her' could be taken as an indicator that he's already set the foundations for something more serious and that it definitely could mean harm for someone.

The OP's the person he's given the info to, maybe she's thinking on how she might feel if he did do something terrible, could she have stopped him? (even though of course the man/MH probs if he has them would be responsible for his behaviour and not the OP)

I don't like that either laurey, but is that all you could find to comment on in the OP?

Not even slightly tempted to hoik, even a little bit?

Your friend sounds quite delusional, but in general I don't think there's anything wrong with an age gap relationship. I dated a 38 year old when I was 19 and it was actually pretty good for me. Helped me to mature and grow. I gained confidence. In my 20s I enjoyed being around older men a lot.

The stuff about following a woman is worrying though. Shit.

The girl on the bus incident sounds odd but perhaps your friend is just delusional. In terms of the age gap thing a LOT of men think its fine to date nubile young things when they themselves are middle-aged, you've only got to read online dating stories and similar on the internet to know that. Young women are bombarded by older men trying their luck. This society is geared towards youth anyway. & these men truly do think they can get a woman decades younger than them, they arent excited by women their own age, especially physically.

I think we often make the mistake of assuming men and women tend to think the same. We don't. Whilst not all men want young women tho, Id day a huge proportion do. & it always seems to be the ones that have fuck all going for them or aren't in the greatest physical shape....!

Still, 21 isn't a child its not as if he was talking about dating underage girls is it. & also there are young women who like older men

He's a nut-bag...

...she wanted him to follow her..

Now that I've read that passage again, I think he may in fact be following young women, or at least that one young woman that he mentioned to you, OP.

I think this because if he had thought the women fancied him and he hadn't followed her he would probably have said 'she wanted him to introduce himself and chat' or 'she wanted him to give her his number'.

I don't think this man knows what a relationship with a woman might be. I think he sees women as something to acquire or catch or, or in some respects as prey.

Does he have any other friends besides you? Any interests?

Tempted agent but it's all been said!

All that's left is this infantilizing of grown women. Makes me question the op' s judgement.

The age gap is not really the main point.

It would just as concerning if it were a 20 year old man who eas convinced 20 year old women on buses he hadn't talked to wanted him to follow them.

This is not normal and is very worrying op. I would not be at all surprised if he is already following women or worse and you only know the half of it.

I know he is your friend but I would having a word with the police on their non emergency line. It is certainly not inconceivable they already have him on their radar. They may simply make a note of the information or they might go to see him to give him a warning, particularly if they already have other pieces of the puzzle. Even if you feel uncomfortable about this, consider these things: think how you would feel if it escalated both for the victim but also for your friend - it is possible a warning from the police will hold some weight in preventing him from escalating. They would also be able to link in and raise concerns if they share your worries about his health. If you still feel worried about it initally try speaking to the police anonymously or hypothetically and see what they say about risk. I think you'll find they consider it concerning.

Im afraid I would absolutely not be meeting him on my own if not in a public place either. Please be careful of your own safety op - this is a man who is very distanced from the impact of his actions and has no respect for women. He may seem harmless to you and you may feel your are too old for his 'type' but I would be very cautious.

I have some professional experience of working with sex offenders btw and this shouts red flags at me.

Well said Laurey.

I suspect the girl on the bus looked at him because she noticed he was staring at her. Which probably made her feel uncomfortable. So she started watching him to check he didn't follow her...

OP why are you friends with this person? He seems to have no redeeming features whatsoever!

He sounds like a stalker creep.