to ask about the general attitude to children with behavioural differences

[Francoitalialan]

Inspired by another thread, if you have ordinary non-special needs kids, especially of primary age, and there's a child at school displaying behaviour that's different to the norm, what conclusion do you reach?

Options may include

Not nice
Nasty
Product of crap parents
Rude
Spiteful
Dim
Annoying
Irritating
And also
Autistic spectrum disorder
Attention deficit disorder
Hyperactivity
Anxiety disorder
Dyspraxia
Sensory processing disorder
Auditory processing Disorder
Misphonia
Tourette's

Ad Infinitum.

Where do you generally place your opinion and why?

Happy for you.

i said some parents do this.

I cannot know if you do this, as I dont know you. So if you take it personally then thats up to you.

feel free to make more bitchy PAs if you like :)

Not worth the energy typing them, particularly when you have your finger on the complaint button.

well thank god for that then. PS are we 12

lifes too short and busy to argue like schoolkids. Have a nice day/life/whatever

Can I pick someone's brains about Aspergers?

So my friends son has recently been diagnosed, our children are 6. I wanted to ask, how do you deal with a child doing something which would be normally regarded as socially unacceptable? So for instance a child with Aspergers is finding it frustrating that they want to play one game, and the other wants to play another. Adults try to compromise with the children ( so turn taking) but the child with Aspergers finds this frustrating and shouts at the other child and acts aggressively ( not necessarily violently, but is in face etc). How would you deal with that scenario? Would it be seen that the child with Aspergers can't help his behaviour ( which I totally understand) so its not dealt with, or should the child still be told it's wrong but in a way that they would understand?

Please excuse my naivety to Aspergers, I hope I'm not being rude asking that question. We spend a lot of time with the child and his Mum and I don't know what to expect.

the main thing to remember is he probably isnt shouting out of being naughty, but because he is anxious and it makes him feel secure to be in control. He does indeed need to learn that he sometimes has to do things that others want to do, but this will be a slow process and won't be dealt with by just disciplining him and telling him what to do.

My DD doesn't have Aspergers and is non verbal so I can't advise any techniques but I'm sure someone can :)

Thanks fango

madmother My DS spent a long time learning about choices and turn taking in a social skills group.

There are a couple of ways to avoid this kind of conflict: you might be able to distract the kids into doing something else; or agree with your friend to structure the playdate so they don’t often have to choose what to play. (Or if your DS is very socially mature and kindly you might be able to prime him in advance that his friend finds it hard to takes turns – my DS had one little friend who would always let DS take charge if he saw DS getting upset, most of them wouldn’t though!) If things were likely to get a bit hairy I used to get out the icing and get DS and his friend to come in the kitchen and decorate biscuits. They always enjoyed it and they could each have saucers of sprinkles and chocolate drops etc. And do keep a close eye. My DS really found it hard to negotiate any kind of disagreement with another child but he was a lot better if an adult was on hand to resolve things for him.

Thanks all

We walk to and from school with the little boy and his Mum so not easy to have plans in place for distraction, DS is pretty relaxed with other children, and is used to the little boys behaviour, but now at least I can explain it! I just didn't really know what to expect, I wasn't surprised when my friend told me about the diagnosis, but she seemed unsure on how the future was going to be, and I am intrigued on how you deal with something that he has no control over.

I can only imagine how that feels

I've not read the whole thread but my experience has been awful. DD 14 has ADHD and ASD we have been completely marginalised by most of DDs school (primary and secondary). Parents gossip about us they "don't believe in ADHD , if she were my DD id do blah blah blah". DD was the one left out of all the parties and pushed out. Now at secondary she has a few friends but still gets uninvited to parties and is her best friend has to keep their friendship secret as mum has said DD is a bad influence.
I'm not going to lie she is bloody difficult but she is complex and people don't realise the damage they do , both to DD and myself. I dread parents evening it's months away and I already feel sick about it. Seeing all the parents looks and guiding their little angels away from my DD. When DD was at primary when I politely asked a parent why their DD was told not to play with my DD they said "we moved away from London to get away from this rubbish , we don't want it so tell your DD to leave my DD alone" They were 5

madmother For social emergencies when out and about, fishing out a little packet of sweeties each has been known to save the day

(The school found that just a drink of water was calming for my DS, but that's probably quite individual!)

So sorry to hear that tina

Please don't think others are sympathetic to DCs with physical disabilities. I still remember the mother ranting to me about how a child like THAT, should not be in a class with ordinary children, as no one else but me challenged her. The child she was talking about used a wheelchair.
Lots of people are just ignorant.

I think a lot of parents of NT DCs have absolutely no idea how relentless and exhausting it can be for parents of DCs with SNs. There are probably times when they could handle situations better or it looks to outsiders that they are "giving in" to unreasonable demands and behaviour. Most parents of NT DCs have done the same when they have reached the end of the tether. We forgive ourselves so should also be more understanding of other parents who are under a lot more pressure than we are.

I have a DN with autism and LDs. This was apparent from toddlerhood so we were lucky to have specialist input from early on. My DSis was driven to the brink of despair so many times. Her marriage broke up because of the pressure DN put on the family. Every night was a disturbed night DN rarely slept for longer than a few hours at a time. The rages were hard to watch and even harder to deal with.

I worked with DCs with SNs so I had some understanding and helped where I could. I would take DN out for the day and leave my DSs with DSis and her other DC, who would do something else together to give the sibling a chance of "normality" for a while. We all went on holiday together once a year and we'd "share the responsibility".

DN responded well to firm boundaries but enforcing them was tiring. DSis always said that DN was "better" for me than for her and her ex. DN was also "better" in school. DN didn't live with me so it was easy for me to insist and be firm in the face of the challenging behaviour because, ultimately, I'd be handing them over at the end of the day. I was less embarrassed by the dirty looks because I was used to them when I took the DCs I taught out and about. It maybe sounds like I was too harsh but DN loved our days out and as soon as the schools broke up wanted to know when they'd be going out with Auntie Mythical.

We were lucky to find the perfect school and as DN got older and gained more understanding of how the world operates they became less distressed by the unexpected and a lot easier to live with. As an adult now in their 30s DN still wants routines and boundaries. DN lives in sheltered accommodation and has a happy life. We still see a lot of each other and DN and I have our days out doing the same things we always did. But it's a lot easier now. DN has gained self-awareness and can laugh at their "old self". There is still the occasional outburst but they are few and far between. DN has been taught coping strategies and the SWs who provide the care are very supportive.

DN would never have coped in MS school and was lucky to live in a county with good provision for DCs with SNs. In MS all the parents would probably have wanted DN out. DN would certainly have been "a danger" to other DCs because the outbursts could be violent. Fortunately we lived in an enlightened county with good SN provision, so that never happened.

Good grief, what an essay. Sorry, I got carried away.

For calming I carry a bottle of water (voss water bottle) with oil, glitter and glue in it. It's like a lava lamp just more sparkly. It's saved the day a few times.

Madmother the approach I've taken with DS1 in situations like that tends to be along the lines of "if you're sitting nicely and not shouting, then we can have one more game, or would you rather I just put it away, now?" It's important to include a sense of reasonable choice (particularly with a child with PDA tendencies) rather than framing what you're saying as a threat.

The boy in question might benefit from more structure to the activity - eg each person having 2 choices of game, taking it in turns. If he's rules driven, then it would be of benefit to emphasise fair play.

For distraction an interesting object or a toy works well. If you have a handpuppet you can use it to 'take over' when things go pearshaped.

I have to say, I'm very ambivalent about all that.
I have two dcs, one NT and one with AS.
This is my take.

As an adult, if I'm faced by another adult (or teenager) that is aggressive or controlling so much so that it stops me from doing what I want or it has to be done in their ways, I would get grumpy at least, irritated and maybe downright angry at the person. I know a lot of adults that would struggle to contain their anger and that would struggle to find 'constructive' ways to deal with that person.
But somehow, we are asking children to do that by including other children who have different behaviours, some of which they won't like at all (eg being hit or controlling the game). We ask them to have enough self control to acknowledge that X is struggling with sensory input so they have to do yyy rather zzzz. I think this is asking a lot from primary schoolchildren.

Then there is my NT child who is already having to deal with his Db everyday, incl to deal with his meltdowns and fits of anger and hitting. Every day.
Is that OK to ask him to deal with children with similar issues at school too? Does he not deserve a break too and a little island of quiet time? Same with the child whose parents are in a very messy divorce, surrounded by shouting and anger at home.
These children have their own difficulties, some of them just as difficult than the ones facing the child with SN. Can we say that the wellbeing of one should trump the other? How can we chose which it should go?

And then finally, dc2 has been one of those left in his own on the playground. In Y1, the teacher 'encouraged' the other children to include him in their games. Nice isn't it? Well yes and no. Because from that, dc2 learnt that these children were his friends and they aren't. He thinks they behave like friends and they aren't. And he still is left in the side of the playground unless they are playing a specific game (football).
So he hasn't gained friends the way an NT child would have iyswim. Nor has he improved his social skills.

DixieNormas- He is doing well and is very happy there. He still needs the1:1 to keep him safe and for all the communication stuff that he does. If he didn't have it he would be wandering aimlessly all the time. His previous school wanted him out and didn't care where he went but I am glad we hung on till we got the right provision.

Can we say that the wellbeing of one should trump the other? How can we chose which it should go?

On this thread we have talked about a lot of very different situations, in and out of school, and a lot of different kinds of behaviour, so no one answer is going fit every case. But I don’t think it helps at all to talk about any child’s needs “trumping” another. We have to maintain a balance between the needs of all our children, as parents or teachers or friends.

And schools do that (OK not always very well). On the one side, My DS's school told me very clearly that if his behaviour could not be brought under enough control then they couldn’t keep him because it would be too dangerous and too disruptive to all the others. (With help he did stabilise, despite some wobbles.) And on the other side of the balance, my DS’s funded TAs didn’t just support him directly, they also helped other children deal with him, and they kept an eye that they were all safe together and not upsetting each other. When DS didn’t need his TAs right there they could also spend extra time with other children who needed other kinds of help, which compensated a bit for the extra demands he put on the class and the teacher.

we are asking children to do that by including other children who have different behaviours, some of which they won't like at all

Ideally we would not just ask other children to do it and then leave them to get on with it. Sometimes children need adult support to include those other children as friends and schoolmates, so that they can be safe and so it's good for them and not a burden.

There are things that your DCs school could do better and your DC2 might really need access to a social skills group so he can make some friends there and also learn to interact with other kids at school. And where I live your DS1 could be seen as having additional needs because of his brother's condition, which might be taken into account at school, or with other support like a social club for sibs of kids with ASCs. I realise those things may not exist where you are and even if they did it might not be enough, but even so it's about general under-provision and not about who “trumps” who.