to ask about the general attitude to children with behavioural differences

[Francoitalialan]

Inspired by another thread, if you have ordinary non-special needs kids, especially of primary age, and there's a child at school displaying behaviour that's different to the norm, what conclusion do you reach?

Options may include

Not nice
Nasty
Product of crap parents
Rude
Spiteful
Dim
Annoying
Irritating
And also
Autistic spectrum disorder
Attention deficit disorder
Hyperactivity
Anxiety disorder
Dyspraxia
Sensory processing disorder
Auditory processing Disorder
Misphonia
Tourette's

Ad Infinitum.

Where do you generally place your opinion and why?

I skim read that thread but I knew it would be hard for me to read. It's all very NIMBY.

That's a good description! NIMBY. Love it.

I try not to judge. Even without taking into account SN or different needs, any child can have a bad day, and any parent can too.

I know it's not the same, but my Dn is tall for her age and has never had much toddler pudge so looks about five or six. She is a typical three year old yet in public people seem to expect her to behave as a six year old would.

I think people seem more judgemental these days. They want all children to fit into nice neat little boxes and any child who doesn't gets 'labelled' with something. I find it quite sad. No two people are the same and you see such a huge spectrum of personalities outside of school. For some reason, in school there is an expectation that all children will behave and react the same way to the environment they're in - even if it doesn't actually suit them and they're not entirely happy in it.

I suppose what I'd think would depend on what the different behaviour was. If is was naughty as in perhaps jumping up and down on bus seats, dragging things off shelves in shops or swearing I'd probably think "that child is being naughty"- but I don't think I'd either judge the parents or immediately attribute it to SN. I don't have a school age child though- just a toddler but in the short time I've been a parent I've learnt not to judge other parents any more. I was terrible for judging parents before I was one though, dummies and children in buggies too long were my personal bug bears-very naive andignorant attitude.

As a pp said it would also be different if it was a one off or a pattern of behaviour and if I knew the parents too.

If they don't have special needs and are behaving badly then they are annoying and irritating.

Kid is under a lot of stress.

Whether that's due to special needs or crap home life or just struggling to adapt to school life/not knowing how to handle a situation. People don't act in crappy ways when they are happy and relaxed - they just don't!

I don't think people (especially children) are inherently "evil".

That's not to say I wouldn't be upset if they had hurt or upset my child. I'd want the adults in the school to deal with the situation effectively - whether that meant more supervision or what. I don't think that random punishments particularly help.

When a "label" is a diagnosis though, it is helpful (or should be).
When there isn't a diagnosis in place, that's when the negative labels are bandied about - naughty, lazy, horrible etc.
I'd far rather ds had a diagnosis of ASD than being labelled a manipulative little shit, which never had any chance of actually helping him.
There is a huge spectrum of personalities, and everyone should be accepted no matter who they are, but if someone is on the autistic spectrum, it's helpful for them to have recognition of that.

No one should be 'forced' to be friends with anyone. Children should be encouraged to try and be inclusive though, absolutely. Good teachers will know which children will be good allies for your DS and I'm sure they will be encouraged into friendships.

I think children are generally quite good at just accepting difference, sadly it's the parental input that changes this. DS was recently on a residential and described an incident which sounded very like one of his classmates had a meltdown. DS felt really sorry for him, helped him calm down and said he didn't mind that this friend had lashed out and called him names because he could see he was so distressed.

My response to this was to explain to DS what might have happened, congratulate him for how he handled it and encouraged him to look out for him in the future. Other parents may respond in exactly the opposite way and say to stay away from him. It's a lack of education around SEND, some parents don't think further than thank fuck it's not my kid

However, on a positive note, I do think and certainly hope they're in the minority.

You don't include children with difficulties by forcing other children to interact with them under threat of punishment, but by providing an environment which enables positive interactions. Ultimately you can't force children into friendships, but young children in particular are much less judgemental than adults, so inclusion is going to be much more successful if efforts to encourage it start early.

Unfortunately I suspect that integration problems often begin very early in schooling, because of the long delays in diagnosis of many SEN - by the time that they get a diagnosis, I imagine that many of these children have long since been stigmatised as the "difficult kid" by teachers, parents and classmates alike :(

"The worst are the parents of the winder-uppers, the kids who know that the child with SN will blow up, and will always be to blame"

Yes to this! Except in our case, it wasn't SN causing him to blow up, it was just constant teasing. The boys knew exactly which buttons to press. Of course the parents thought their children could do no wrong at all and DS obviously had ishoos

My son is just 6, has dyspraxia and SPD and awaiting an autism assessment thankfully for him his behaviour isn't generally 'naughty' in school but he does behaviour differently from his peers and has a speech delay that doesn't help matters either. He has always struggled socially in school but this year being in a smaller class he seems to be finding his place a bit more and has actually been invited to a party this year!

When we are out and about though it never fails to amaze me the looks and overheard comments from adults when he is struggling. Strangely they are seemingly less judgemental (or quieter about it!) when he is in his SN buggy, although I have had people tell me off for taking him into the disabled toilets in it as its not a wheelchair!

BertieBotts " People don't act in crappy ways when they are happy and relaxed - they just don't!"

I know where you're coming from but that's not helpful or true, depending on your view of "crappy"!

My son HAS to touch certain things, run and jump and shout! That's true if he's upset and more so if he's happy and relaxed! But it's still irritating for those around him.

Phil, I agree that having a diagnosis is a good thing when it is appropriate. I just think sometimes people are too quick to want to put a label on behaviour instead of looking at the alternatives to SN that might actually be causing it.

Agree Maryz. Those threads are always very upsetting. The lack of empathy and understanding from some people astounds me.

YYY Maryz re isolating and the class "bully". My friend tried to do this to a child in reception who had cut her child's hair. I called her on it, she spoke to the child's mum and sure enough she was mid diagnosis for adhd. My friend had never come across special needs before and simply reacted to what she saw. Thankfully she's rather more enlightened.

I've read that back and I'm not sure I'm explaining my point very well. Sorry!

It's bloody hard to watch sometimes.

My DS is in a special school (and that's no picnic for him either) but when in mainstream I watched him go into school talking away to himself (as he does when anxious) and behind him were a group of kids in the same year group pointing at him, mimicking him and laughing (thankfully DS was oblivious). As a parent that is very hard to see.

I was also the parent who found it hard to chat at the school gate as people just froze me out. DS rarely got invited to parties and never had play dates as nobody wanted him round. He never made close friends either so never wanted to have anyone over. Actually typing this breaks my heart, he will be 13 in three weeks time and I fear for his future which I can see as being very isolated.

Society is still not very inclusive.

I see what you mean Bumbley, but IME with the hoops you have to jump through, if you get to the point where the child has a diagnosis, then it is necessary.
Diagnoses aren't handed out like smarties, and are not given out simply for bad behaviour.

Franco, I think many parents are quick to judge without knowing what's actually going on. IME they rarely bother speaking to the parents to find out either. They just gossip away in their little cliques

Maryz, I know a couple of ADHD parents who self medicate with coke/ highly caffeinated beverages. It's actually a 'thing'. Not so much the skittles, but the coke certainly. Usually for a trial period before medication, to see if it helps - there seems to be a correlation between that and whether medication will be effective. Highly caffeinated stuff does work for some children and adults with ADHD (some use the even stronger power drinks).

Op, it would depend on the child. We have had very different children in classes with ours, and the difficulties usually only occur if the education of the wider class is being affected. In these circumstances I always advise parents (the parents struggling with their dc's behaviour) to specifically request that other parents go in and complain. Often it is the only way to increase support for the child who is struggling. Every kid is different though, so you can't apply a single label or attitude to all children that are struggling with behaviour. It would be ridiculous. All individuals, which is why effective support for the individual is required.

Most classrooms have kids that struggle occasionally, especially in the younger years where SN TAs haven't yet worked out triggers or been able to get coping mechanisms in place. We had one spectacular year where the class was evacuated on at least a weekly basis for safety, but as soon as adequate support was put in place and the TA learned to spot triggers, the incidences reduced. Lower level behavioural stuff is all part of the package, really (in that it is part of life). We are all different and to the most part as kids get older and understand more, they are more accepting. There will always be those with zero empathy though.

It's still quite hard to get a diagnosis though Bumbly, DS had loads of assessment s before a paediatrician pulled it all together and said "he has autism".

I take your point about other issues...I've seen children in chat I'd families labelled with ADHD.

They may indeed have ADHD not helped by a chaotic family life.

Or they may be showing signs of PTSD which can give children similar behaviours to ADHD. This is especially in families where there has been a lot of violence.

Either way you have a child who needs support.