to ask about the general attitude to children with behavioural differences

[Francoitalialan]

Inspired by another thread, if you have ordinary non-special needs kids, especially of primary age, and there's a child at school displaying behaviour that's different to the norm, what conclusion do you reach?

Options may include

Not nice
Nasty
Product of crap parents
Rude
Spiteful
Dim
Annoying
Irritating
And also
Autistic spectrum disorder
Attention deficit disorder
Hyperactivity
Anxiety disorder
Dyspraxia
Sensory processing disorder
Auditory processing Disorder
Misphonia
Tourette's

Ad Infinitum.

Where do you generally place your opinion and why?

Where I live the only state special schools are for those with severe and profound learning difficulties. A child who is violent but does not have severe learning difficulties should not be in those schools because the other children are very vulnerable,.

Francoitalialan

I think I may have taught your son or someone with similar problems last week.

I'm supply, currently working in a school so when I'm not covering my specialism I get sent to cover all sorts, in the last week, Spanish, English, IT and dance.

I had a child who seemed incapable of sitting down or putting his phone away. I had no information about this child.

Pupils know I'm supply so there is a general acting up in many classes so at the start he was one of many who had their phone out.

I don't have access to any SEN diagnosis, sometimes there is a TA or learning mentor but in this case not.

To be honest I had no idea what to do other than keep telling him to sit down and put his phone away. He helpfully offered to switch the OHP on (I'm too short to reach) but instead played with all the buttons so we couldn't use OHP.

I didn't sanction him because it appeared to my untrained eye that he didn't have any control over what he was doing. Maybe he completely conned me, but I'd rather be conned than sanction a child with a genuine problem.

What as a parent is your advice to me?

Eg my handouts and ppt's are automatically dyslexia friendly (font and background colour) so if a child has dyslexia they are hopefully helped and if they don't, then well they can still read it but fore something like a child running round a room is there anything I an do?

Sorry when I say 'no information' no information about SEN

I wouldn't be able to tell you what normal behaviour is for a child.

I think exhausting when I think of children with behavioural issues but Im a TA working with nurture groups . I love it don't get me wrong, but having 10 children in a mainstream class who need to learn the curriculum but who won't sit down for 2 minutes, who find it challenging dealing with social situations so essentially they are horrible to each other and then get upset/angry when someone retorts and trying to keep the peace.
Is exhausting.

As a parent I find it frustrating, my friends DS is in DDs class and was always quite handsy as a toddler and played rough but DD comes home from school everyday saying he's hurt her. I don't want my DD being hurt by anyone whether they have behavioural needs or not.

No matter what the childs special needs are there is no excuse for rudeness or bad behaviour

This is a bit like saying no matter what the child's disabilities are, there is no excuse for using a wheelchair or needing a hearing aid.

People accept physical disability but not mental disability. It's the same as mental illness. If you have cancer, people are falling over themselves to help you. If you have a mental illness, people keep away until it's over, it's too embarrassing for them.

I think before i had kids i would just think hmm nasty child or not great dicipline from parents (not very nice i know) but now i would be alot more tolerant and think aww that must be hard..if no one mentioned and disorders it just wouldnt enter my mind - which is bad but i just wouldnt think

Children with SEN in mainstream schools are being massively let down, not due to the fault of schools (although I could give examples of teachers who will never understand SEN as long as they breathe) but due to lack of funding which is facing further cuts in terms of budgets being frozen. Most teachers, TAs and other school staff do a fabulous and very undervalued job with children who may have a variety of SEN. Fact is they are underfunded and understaffed though.

We have the OFSTED inspector for SEN coming to MN for a webchat this week. I have so much I could say and very little of it is positive....so much so that I cannot even begin to get my thoughts together and write anything coherent. My experience of SEN support in mainstream schools are not good and I am talking simple stuff that schools SHOULD know and understand.

Even worse is the fight with the LA to get a child placed anywhere not mainstream. In the end I was fortunate as a new Free school opened locally for children with speech, language and communication issues. The LA refused to place my DS in one of the local SEN schools but suggested the new Free school. Thankfully DS was offered a place there otherwise I could and would have gone to Tribunal to fight for the right education support.

What makes me even angrier is that there are many other children in the same position as my child was in mainstream schools being systematically let down. Their parents either don't have the strength, energy, time or the words needed to take on the LA and say "this isn't good enough and you are letting my child down".

My child doesn't hit others unless they tease and wind him up at which point he may rarely hit out. Mostly he cries and hides.

A child in his class at his new school tends to kick when stressed, she is autistic and I can quite see that a mainstream school would not work for her as other children, other parents and even the school staff might not understand. Thankfully I understand that if she feels stressed by DS in her "space" she might kick.....have told him to give her space and all is well. But then I understand autism and how stress can manifest.

In the end there are not enough schools catering for children like my DS and some of his classmates. It's only by raging and fighting that we have gained the right education for DS, it shouldn't be that way.

I think people forget that children who are nt also hurt children with sn. The name calling, pointing and laughing, deliberate winding up till they explode. When my son was in mainstream he was at a whole class party where another child (nt) started throwing things at him and called him a baby because he had a toy in his mouth. My son may become aggressive when he is distressed but he is far more vulnerable than a nt child of the same age.

Honking - you are absolutely right of course, and that is totally unacceptable. The difference (I think) at school is that if an NT child behaves that way they get disciplined, they hopefully learn not to do it again, and if they do it escalates to the point of exclusion. For a child with SN the school a telling off doesn't cut it, and it continues indefinately, the school doesn't know how to cope with it because they don't have the facilities of the training to do so.

"People accept physical disability but not mental disability. It's the same as mental illness. If you have cancer, people are falling over themselves to help you. If you have a mental illness, people keep away until it's over, it's too embarrassing for them."

Sadly not true. As someone with a visible physical disability I know that strangers often treat you badly.

I think people don't accept mental or learning disabilities as being a disability. Even getting things like dla/pip and blue badges are difficult as the forms are not geared up for them and those assessing don't understand.

totalrecall that is seriously unfair.

I am always saying on here that all kids should be safe. I do believe its not the parents fault if something goes wrong, but the schools.

My point earlier, which was twisted, was that people pretend they are being all caring in wanting kids to go to special schools but I believe many of them just want shot of the child with SN.

People should just be honest.

And my child doesn't have an impact on mainstream children, or any child, as she is a quiet passive child, incidentally.

you, you would also have an understanding of the impact the behaviour on your child has on theirs

the parents cant control the behaviour at school, it is down to the school.

'I would hope though Franco that whilst the mothers of the NT children should have understanding for the position of your child and of course you, you would also have an understanding of the impact the behaviour on your child has on theirs. '

Why the hell would that have been deleted? Its a completely valid Point. What bull.

sashh I can only comment from my experience with my own child, and I strongly feel that the school are letting YOU and the child down if you're not briefed on who you are teaching. I've been very vocal about this at my son's school - I've insisted that every teacher coming into contact with him is briefed, so that they have appropriate expectations of his behaviour.
Otherwise both teacher and child are set up to fail.

What I'd add is that if you've got a child that can't sit still, don't try and make them. Work around it - do something different, so that they're able to access what you're delivering.
My boy can sit if he runs before and afterwards and is often seen zooming around doing "missions" before occasions when he has to sit quietly.

At ds's last school (primary in a very naice area), his worst meltdowns, starting as soon as he got in the car, we're following days where he was picked on by two NT boys. They were well known for picking on the children with SN.
One child was followed home every day and had stones thrown, he was tripped up, they called him retard. They did this in school as well and teachers turned a blind eye to it all.
I went to see the HT about it, she blanked the issue and wouldn't even acknowledge it.
Teachers in that school were very bad at dealing with the dc with SN, they mentally poked and prodded them, showed no understanding, gave no support.
The bully boys came from very well to do families, and school simply did not want to have to tackle them about it.
The dc who had meltdowns and lashed out in school all did so because of bullying and poor management.
It doesn't always have to cost the school money to help dc with ASD, but a slight change in language used, attitude towards them, trying to understand their difficulties, tackling bullying straight away, lots of basic things like this which are ignored.

In school, ds (PDA) is called lazy for asking for help, he's told off for stimming (because it doesn't look like stereotypical stimming probably), he is often rude to the TA because she is strict and demanding in a "do this because I said so" kind of way, he is told off for getting giddy in pe, even though they know he also has spd, he's told off for ignoring teachers when it all gets too much.
But they can't see any ASD behaviour at all
Ds comes home every day at the moment and melts down, we spend every fucking evening supervising him, chucking junk food in the oven because there's no chance to cook anything decent, we have to keep him split up from his siblings or he'll hurt them, he's refusing melatonin half the time so not sleeping until very late.
But we're the lucky ones because he's "fine" in school.
I have no idea if better strategies in school, which would cost nothing to put in place, would help, because no-one will fucking try!
Yet we're the shit parents because our son hurts us and we "let him get away with it".
School are obviously doing it right because he's "fine" there.
HE'S NOT FINE, HE'S MASKING. THERES A DIFFERENCE.

Sorry, bad morning and getting really down that apparently school do not care about one of the dc in their care, his future and well being, and that of his family, who are not coping well at the moment.

Bloody hell that was long. Sorry

I can't see the deleted post just the part that's been copied.

The impact of my child? He isn't violent. He's self contained, gentle and sunny. He might not play easily with your child, or follow rules of games. He might fidget. He might make funny noises when stressed, or flap about. He might prove to be an amusing target if your child is the type to wind him up.

Philphil

Have you considered taking him out and homeschooling?

Life is complex and these issues are complex.

What is important is that people are open to discussion and education.

I don't believe people want to be 'bad' parents - yet inadequate parenting exists. Usually stemming from complex historical and social factors.

Parenting can exacerbate issues around special needs - because the type of parenting needed is relentless and may need (often lacking) specialist input/training.

Parenting can cause behavioural issues in 'normal' children - because the parents (through no fault of their own) may lack the background/support/education/input needed to be better parents.

The idea that parents have some omnipotent and omniscient control over their children is a damaging one - and stems from the history of the psychology of childhood - a lot of which is just theorising, constantly changing - and at the end of the day we just don't know.

For a long time parents of children with special needs have been blamed. From Kanner's theory of 'refrigirator moms' who were cold and unresponsive to their children which caused them to become autistic. (remember this resulted in these children being taken away from their parents and put into institutions) - the ripples of these, now very discredited theories, are still trotted out time and time again.

We still don't really understand the complex issues around neurological differences. These differences manifest themselves in many different ways. In fact our understanding today, may very well be looked upon in 100 years as blatantly wrong.

What I do know is that there is not one right way. That there is no perfect way to parenting. That we could all do very well by trying to step outside of our own nuclear family sometimes and remember we are part of wider communities. That a bit of empathy can go a very long way. And that teaching our children to be empathetic to the needs of others will create a stronger and more cohesive society.