To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

[CallaLilli]

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

It might have already been mentioned, but also, what about women whose religious beliefs mean they can't be undressed for eg around unknown men?

I don't think this issue is limited to dads on maternity wards... I recently had to spend a night in hospital with my poorly baby. We shared a room with a child who's entire family were there until midnight, both parents, siblings, grandparents. More family kept coming, bringing shared meals, games, toys. My dc couldn't sleep because of all of the noise and became quite distressed, it was awful.

I'm not against fathers staying on the wards if they are quiet, respectful and keep themselves to themselves. The issue seems to be that general manners no longer apply and it's not the job of staff to police visitors. I like handywomans hospital, pass for one visitor only and a code of conduct.

I had a private room after having my first and dh still had to be out by 8pm. I couldn't believe I was being left alone with no idea what I was doing!! It would have been really nice if he could have stayed.

It's not sexism it's looking at the world as is.

Hospital wards cannot offer each couple privacy so it's impractical.

YANBU and by DH going home and getting a good nights sleep he came in refreshed, energised and actually completely physically and emotionally able to be of help to me the next day, while I was still in hospital. If he'd also been up for most of the night/not got a decent nights kip, doubt he would've been much use. I had my own room too, but could not imagine having to share with other women and their partners.

Except that every time this thread comes up women, just justify poor care and lack of facilities saying that we can't afford it. So, it doesn't happen because women are defeatist from the start which in turn means there is no political pressure or motivation to do bugger all.

I would love better maternity care - I had one to one MW care with some of my births at it really is a fantastic system than should be available everywhere in UK.

I don't see the way to get that is to get men on the postnatal wards.

This is a distraction at best at worse an excuse to cut funding and care in post natal wards even more - why have more nurses there when mother should have their DP.

Getting men on the wards doesn't train or pay extra MW or build single room facilities. Surely that should be campaigned for first not assume that getting men on wards will magically make that all happen.

I do agree though that saying HB are an option for everyone is wrong though. I personally wasn't aware paying for a private room was even an option at the hospital I was at - so wonder how often that's a solution either.

Also what about the dads responsibilities to other siblings?

My dh was busy sorting out our 3 older kids while I had dc4.

I wouldn't have wanted to shove that responsibility into my dm/dmil so he could sit with me.

Tfoot75 It might well be the parents' responsibility to care for the new born but a lot of the women on post natal wards are also medical patients with complex medical needs, obstetric traumas and gynaecological complications.

There's a lot of sexism towards men in these replies! And most of the complaints would only be solved by banning all men from post natal wards,

I did say it's not just men - it's all visitors who are often very excited, loud and a bit unthinking.

"Husbands being allowed to stay can also put women in real physical danger too zoemaguire."

See, I knew somebody would say this. If somebody wants to attack women on a maternity ward, they will manage to do it regardless - in the day, for instance! Or indeed by hiding away such that staff don't see them. In any case, there are mixed wards (if not mixed bays) in every hospital, so men have 'access' to vulnerable women everywhere in hospital. I suspect in practice you'd be hard pressed to find many examples of women being attacked by male strangers in a maternity ward specifically because they were allowed to stay at night!

Women receiving woefully substandard and dangerous care, left alone and desperately vulnerable, on the other hand, happens every night.

RedToothBrush - I am interested in your post - but I don't fully understand it!

What is the defeatism that you are angry about it- expecting poor care so we need our partners there? Or expecting partners to be awful? Or what?

How do you feel about partners on wards? and how do you think their presence or absence helps women to demand proper care?

or have I just missed the point completely?

I think the comment about danger was probably referring to abused women, ie if they are in hospital by themselves then they might pluck up the courage to tell staff there that they are victims of domestic abuse, but if their partners are there then they will be too scared to say anything.

I'll be giving birth in a couple of months and will be interested to see how my experience compares with those of UK friends. Over here post natal rooms are either single rooms, or you share with one other person. There are no 6-8 bed wards. Fathers are ONLY allowed to stay overnight in single rooms and have to have permission in advance.

You stay in the hospital for 3-4 days after the birth to recover properly.

Children under 15 are not allowed on the wards at any point because of the higher risk of them being germy from school, etc. In reality it's also very probably to avoid women having to endure kids running about in a shared room, and to give mother's a proper break to recover.

No-one gets butt hurt or pearl clutchy about any of this.

It will be interesting to see how it works in reality.

Considering France has one of the highest birth rates in the EU, it's a bit odd that they can manage this but somehow it's impossible in the UK.

RedToothBrush, your comment is really strange. Did anyone on this thread say that we should not be campaigning for better maternity services? I saw many women saying exactly the opposite. And I totally fail to see how me not wanting strange blokes to ogle me while I am trying to establish breastfeeding while wearing a bloody diaper post c-section is demonstrating a defeatist attitude. Me wanting some privacy does not equal me not wanting somebody else's mental of physical needs to be met.

Hospitals, whatever ward we are talking about, should be safe places where people can recover in peace, quiet and privacy. This does not have anything to do with sexism. There are a million ways in which men can be an important part of their children's first days besides staying on crowded shared wards 24 hours a day. The visiting hours are generally long, and men could just do more at home to avoid very common situation where women, upon their return from maternity wards, find their houses a tip and their fridges empty.

Guess the answer is to have wards where patients want their dh there and wards where they don't. Isn't that easy enough to organise.

I think it's unfair to simple say if you want your dh there pay for a private room. Many people can't afford that.

I think it depends on your experience. First time round I was fine without dh being there. But second time round I had a c-section and wish I d made him stay in the chair. I felt paralysed to the bed, unable to even turn to pat or stroke my baby to comfort her let alone pick her up. She cried and cried and I couldn't pick her up. The staff weren't great and would get her out/ put her back for me and one went and walked her round for all of 3 minutes whilst she cried. I ended up being told off for letting her sleep on me but I had no other option. I wish dh had been there to help me.

I wonder what would happen if you did split the wards so some had men on and some didn't - would some women who say they want their husbands in principle, then actually decide that they didn't want to share a ward with other husbands?

It's not just being attacked - I imagine actual physical attacks by other husbands than your own are pretty rare. It's more noise, annoyance, gawping, humiliation, chairs being scraped into your space, and so on. I think, anyway

What do you all think about paediatric wards? Small children sleep on wards with their parents. DH has stayed with DS on a shared ward several times. Last time DS was in hospital with DH there was a teenage girl in the next bed). Is it any different, it was only when I went in the next morning that I thought that girl might well have felt vulnerable with a strange man in the cubicle next to her? And you can't tell a father that he can't stay on a ward with his toddler child so why is a staying with a newborn any different?

Goodness no no no...this is an awful idea. I had to spend 5 nights on the post natal ward and despite a no dads overnight policy there was at least one dad overnight 4 out of the 5 nights. I kept shutting the curtain round me for privacy and would wake up to find that that midwife had opened it so they could keep an eye on everyone - a couple were very loud, holding full on conversations at 3am...one spent about 2 hours talking so loudly on his phone about nonsense! 2 were ok but their very existence made me hugely uncomfortable. I also felt sorry for my lovely DH who stuck to the rules visiting when he was supposed to. Terrible terrible idea.

"I think the comment about danger was probably referring to abused women, ie if they are in hospital by themselves then they might pluck up the courage to tell staff there that they are victims of domestic abuse, but if their partners are there then they will be too scared to say anything."

Most maternity services make sure there are multiple pathways for women to speak up about dv. Midwives make absolutely sure that at least one visit is alone with the women. Also, does your hospital not have stickers in the loos for women to stick on their sample pots if they have dv concerns? The night after giving birth is hardly likely to be number one occasion to air such concerns. Besides which, if the night care was anything like that which I experienced, there were not enough bloody midwives there to do anything at all, let alone act sensitively enough to prod somebody into making difficult disclosures.

*Also what about the dads responsibilities to other siblings?

My dh was busy sorting out our 3 older kids while I had dc4.

I wouldn't have wanted to shove that responsibility into my dm/dmil so he could sit with me.*

No one is suggesting it's mandatory, fgs.

Even if every single partner was lovely, respectful and kind, many women would still feel uncomfortable sharing space with strange men after giving birth for many reasons, past sexual abuse, shuffling past them to get to toilet after leaking, knowing your intimate convos with staff can be heard.

They might sound trivial, but I don't think they are and the more I read, the more I feel that patients should come first, and better healthcare is needed because some women are let down by understaffing etc.

No no a thousand times no.
My hospital has a birthing centre where partners can stay overnight, they even have a double bed for this purpose. But rooms are all private. I got moved to postnatal the next day with the standard visiting hours plus partners there all day. That was enough to be honest. As much as I felt sad when dh had to go home I also felt exposed at my most vulnerable to complete strangers. There was a woman on the ward for a couple of hours who was getting induced and her partner was there in grimy overalls and he was staring at me. I felt so uncomfortable I went home the next day when I could have done with longer in hospital.
Its not about dads or even babies we are talking about women who have been through all sorts, vulnerable, bleeding, emotional and they should not be forced into what is effectively a mixed sex ward.

Practically you are doubling the number of people in the space, I just don't think it works. The busier the ward, the less restful it will be. You'll have double the comings and goings, the space will be more crowded. Not to mention, people wanting pillows or blankets.

If I was prioritising political demands around maternity care, this would be way down my list, but I find that with a lot of the WEP demands. They seem geared towards very specific types of women.

I think the answer is to have separate wards so women can choose. Ones with dh staying the night and ones without.

Tbh after I have birth to ds my first I didn't give two hoots what other men thought or who saw me breastfeed. I was too busy dealing with ds and getting my head round what the hell to do with him. I think having support and care from dh is more important and has a greater affect on the women and baby than the odd women who might feel funny about walking past a man to the toilet or when breastfeeding. I imagine most dh wouldn't give too hoots about the other women either as they are too busy concentrating on their new dc. Surely it will also ease the workload for nurses too as patients won't need to beep to be helped to the toilet, get a drink, pick/ put down baby etc.

I don't think the added noise and annoyance would be much as from my experience very little sleep happens on maternity wards anyway.

It's not sexist - it's the same arguments as not having mixed sex wards - people should be allowed some modesty and privacy.

Really when it comes to supporting partners - why shouldn't wives be allowed to stay all day on a male urology or proctology ward?, or as mentioned before men staying all day on a female gynae ward? I was in far more pain and distress when I was on a gynae ward than I was when I had a baby - yes it would have been nice to have my then H with me, but obviously the idea of him being there all day with vulnerable female patients would have been ludicrous and horrible for the other women having gynae exams behind curtains.

The idea that anyone should feel restricted in what they can discuss with the doctors doing the ward rounds or the nurses who come to you because you've had a bleed in your bed or whatever, because the men floating around would make women feel embarrassed and invaded is unacceptable.

It doesn't matter how lovely or kind or wonderful your husband is or how understanding and respectful he is - I wouldn't want him in earshot when I am having a personal discussion with a doctor or nurse about my body.

Why when it comes to privacy, confidentiality and respect should a woman who has had a baby get a lower standard than any other patients?