To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

[CallaLilli]

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

Whenever I've been in hospital i can always clearly hear what is being said to other patients - the curtains are not soundproof - I try to always stick my earplugs in if someone is having a consultation.

A post natal wards is in part a gynae ward - I would not want to have to discuss my stitches, blood loss, third degree tear, laxative needs etc etc in the hearing of strange men. It's a total invasion of privacy.

I recently had an operation where the room I was in needed to be kept at a high temperature - another woman had the same op as me and in order for our very big operations to be successful, we had to have this temperature maintained. Another person in the room had been stuck in the same ward as us because of lack of space, - i felt sorry for her being stuck in the hot room - but her visitors despite being told not to kept opening the windows, they also kept coming around the closed curtains round my bed to take my chairs - because she had so many folk in at once. I was on all sorts of drips and drains and there was a commode I could have been using at any time.

They never respected my privacy - some people never will, women who have just given birth are vulnerable mentally and physically - no way would I have the added stress of randomers possibly embarrassing and humiliating you into the mix. It's bearable for visiting time because you know there's a limit on it.

I now some partners would be respectful and absolutely fine - but it only takes one who isn't to make a woman's time in hospital a hideous stressful experience - hardly what you need when you are trying to recover physically and bond with your baby, establish breast feeding etc.

Of course everyone would like single rooms for all new mothers. But it's not going to happen any time soon - certainly not in our major cities, where the rising birth rate and more complicated births mean huge pressure on maternity beds. And dividing the wards into one with fathers and one without isn't practical either. Honestly, ask any midwife - there are not enough surplus beds to be able to do this. You could ask a representative population sample their views, but that still doesn't mean the NHS has the resources to respond.

No, the views of most women on MN don't generally reflect those of society as a whole. But they do reflect the views of many women who've thought this through. Yes, it would be lovely for each of us to have our own lovely partners there the whole time. But the reality is that other people's partners aren't that lovely.

I have twice been trapped in a hospital room (once post-natally, once when my DS was in hospital) with aggressive unpleasant men who also happened to be fathers. In both cases, the men had to be removed at the end of visiting hours by security staff. I'm very, very glad they went because I would not have been comfortable sleeping in the same room as those men.

Those are the only two times I've ever been in hospital overnight as an adult. I don't imagine my experiences are unusual, I think they're probably depressingly common.

I suppose you might equally be sharing with a vile thug of a woman. Does anyone think for one moment that if men had babies they would share rooms? who shares rooms anywhere these days except in some sorts of hospital accommodation? The campaign should be for single rooms AND partners being allowed to stay. I had DS1 at The Garden Hospital in Hendon many years ago, we had a double bed and fathers were expected to stay.

At the hospital I used to work at, we had 24 hour guards in A&E and Maternity. You'd think that aggressive behaviour is less likely where women are giving birth than in any other part of the hospital, but you'd be wrong!

No it's a stupid idea unless all rooms are single.

Visiting time can be bad enough with hoards of twats talking loudly and disturbing your sleep or worse trying to make conversation with you.

In my view visiting times should be restricted properly on post natal wards and no bloody way should men be stopping over.

The best experience I had was with dc 4 as I had my own ensuite room.NHS. Bloody bliss.

There are partners staying overnight on the postnatal ward where I work.

The idea that they are there to help and support their partners.

One of my colleagues told me that on a night shift recently she went to answer a buzzer and the woman (post section) had buzzed asking for the baby to be passed to her while her partner sat in the chair beside her! She also had to ask a man to get dressed as he thought it was ok to wonder round the ward in his boxer shorts.

If that can't be done then they could divide the wards up as to one with fathers present and one without.

But then what happens if you want the patient-only ward and it's full? When I had DC2 the hospital had two postnatal wards. One was for women who'd had reasonably straightforward deliveries and we're expected to only have a short stay (overnight mainly), the other was for woman with higher needs who would be expected to stay a little bit longer so women who'd had sections, forceps, complicated deliveries, etc.

When I came out of recovery from my EMCS, the higher needs ward where I was supposed to go was full so they put me on the other postnatal ward. That was fine, a bed is a bed and the staff were made aware. I spent two days being referred to as "the section lady".

But what if the ward I wanted to go on was patients only and it was full and the only spare bed was on a ward where partners were allowed overnight? Should I be forced to stay on that ward against my wishes? Should someone on the patients only ward be forcibly discharged to make room for me? Should I be forcibly discharged even though I had a section that morning?

Unless they can provide private rooms for all women (and how much would that cost!?) then it's a no go.

I actually don't find that too surprising devora because there are probably more visitors on the maternity ward than others, and also because the women there and therefore their partners are more likely to be of prime fighting age. Makes sense!

Inconsiderate, rude or behaviour which makes other women feel uncomfortable or vulnerable is totally unacceptable, and no man should be allowed to stay on the ward if they do so. However I don't believe in holding all men to this standard and those exceptions should be dealt with.

Again, sounds nice on paper but not actually going to happen. Who's going to do this dealing, the already overworked midwives? The already insufficient hospital security? We know that this sort of behaviour already goes unchecked. The resources to deal with it aren't going to magically appear once everyone is allowed a partner 24/7. The reality is that some women, particularly those who or whatever reason don't have a man there to stick up for them, will feel bullied into accepting this sort of behaviour. I'm lucky enough to have a fairly handy DH and lots of family close by who would look not only look after our elder DC but turn up mob handed if necessary, so I'll never be that woman. But if I was, I don't think I'd be brave enough to speak up.

Having gone back and read old threads about this, the most striking thing to me is that so many said, yes, I would have loved my DH there, but I understand that other women wouldn't want him there. So many of those women (myself included) want support, yet most women (including them) by default say "Ergh, men, gross".

I agree that it wouldn't work because too many men are total shits. Why women are having babies with them I'll never know. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this (meh) but my DH is lovely, decent and respectful. It annoys me that he couldn't be with me because of the behaviour of the other shitty men out there that make this an impossible solution.

The problem is in the current state of maternity wards, a family member needs to be present for the basic needs of many mothers to be dealt with. I don't much care who! After my last C-section, I held my baby all night, because nobody was answering the bell, so I knew that if she was put in her cot, I wouldn't be able to get her back again. I waited an age for pain relief, and got told off by the nurse for crying in agony when she finally came (and gave me two paracetamol ) - apparently I should have called her sooner, even though I'd first rung the bell at least an hour previously. Somebody took out my catheter at about 2am, and when DH arrived in the morning I was seriously about to wet the bed, because nobody was willing to help me get up and go to the loo, despite me asking several times. I felt horrifically vulnerable. There were not the staff, for instance, to notice that I was developing a serious infection, which after they kicked me out the next morning got me readmitted a few hours later for a further five days.

I think while these things are happening, hospitals need to allow a family member to stay overnight, even if it ends up making some women uncomfortable. It should be a separate issue, of course, but in practice, I think husbands not being allowed to stay is leading to women being put in real danger.

YANBU, and there was a very interesting thread a while back where MNHQ canvassed opinions on behalf of a childbirth charity (can't remember the name - as the wanted to campaign for this.

The overwhelming majority of MNers did not want men on the wards overnight, for many reasons, most of which have already been mentioned, when they are feeling vulnerable after giving birth.

However we must always be wary of charities/politicians telling us the results of canvassed opinions. Ask a woman:

Would you want your DH to be able to stay on the ward with you?

And the response would probably be Yes.

Ask them to think it through - and ask whether they would like everyone else's DH on the ward, and to have a man sleeping in a chair 6 inches away from your bed, pushing the chair into your curtain, and the majority change their view.

A ward for 6 becomes a ward for 12, the dads are using the toilets that the women need to use, demanding MW's attention - and there's fairly good evidence (even if only anecdotal) that the men start to see themselves as the patient, and expect food, tea, attention etc from the nurses.

You might be sharing with a vile thug of a woman Constance, yes. They exist and they give birth. However, there are two important distinctions to be made between her and a vile thug of a male partner.

1. She's the patient. She kind of has to be there. Unless we want to start denying NHS treatment to arseholes tempting there will always be an unavoidable risk of them being in hospital having necessary medical treatment while other people are also having necessary medical treatment. Not really any way round that.

1. The vile thug of a woman will have just given birth. She's not going to be in her top fighting form. The same won't be true of an equally violent and obnoxious male partner. You'd be more at risk from him.

Am surprised to read these views - I work at a hosp where men have been allowed to stay on PN ward for the last few years. They are issued with a pass and asked to sign a 'code of conduct' type thingy and they aren't allowed to use the inpatient toilets/showers. It's discussed at antenatal classes and hospital tours. Works well, gives the message that dads are integral to the birth of the baby. Midwives are supposed to see the woman alone x2 in pregnancy and ask about DV. There is usually opportunity and when the partner is always there, midwives are able to get the woman on her own fairly easily, by taking her to be weighed or show her where the loo is. Plus if partners are domineering or unkind midwives often hear the interaction and deal with it/ report accordingly.

Husbands being allowed to stay can also put women in real physical danger too zoemaguire.

I gave birth on a MLU and my husband was allowed to stay, I had my own room and bathroom and TBH I don't think I'd have managed without him men are just as important however I really think maternity wards should all be cubicles with no bedded areas at all.

Pre DC and pre mumsnet I'd have say yes of course they should stop.

I would have actually wanted my DH there. It would have been nice to have some help and an advocate - instead of strop wtf are you bothering me staff.

However I expect people to be considerate - woman having given birth are going to be tried, sore, leaking and vulnerable. People aren't - it's not just men - that includes aunts, sister, GM and best female friends.

They are noisy, entitled, don't respect privacy IME.

I found post birth man women - including my DC GM had forgotten about having babies - how sore, tried or overwhelm you can get - expecting more waiting on than previously expressing surprised we were tired.

So are the women wanting this pre giving birth, never going to go through it so thinking academically, or so long ago they've forgotten what it's like or even and thinking more about what would be best for them in regards to access to GC?

I was told off that we had no other childcare bar DH for our older DC - it didn't compute to MW despite us being considerable distance from our families who had ill health or still worked. Our solution was HB.

I can't help but wonder how soon it would be expected that DP stay or that mother had some advocacy on the wards - and people with no-one are put at more risk.

MLUs are all own room though freezing, so that's quite different to the postnatal ward where most patients will be on multi-bed wards. And men aren't just as important, because they've not just given birth.

Agree with lost that this is going to be particularly problematic for women who don't have a partner to stay there with them. If you're a single mother, or your DP needs to be at home with the kids, you may well have nobody. And then of course you're going to be in a worse position than either someone who does, or than you would have been if nobody's DH was there overnight.

YANBU.

If having a partner stay is that important, then people should have to pay for a private room. The rooms should be given on a needs first basis - e.g. someone with multiples would be given priority over someone who just fancied a private room.

Men are the parents. BUT THEY ARE NOT PATIENTS. They have absolutely NO business on post natal wards.

Viviennemary Tue 24-Nov-15 12:27:38
I agree. If people don't want to be separated from their partner for a few nights then give birth at home and give the rest of us a bit of peace and privacy.

Every single time this subject comes up, someone comes up with a stupid comment like that, which suggests that magically this is an option for all women.

There are plenty of women who would like to do that but its just not an option or don't feel its safe.

Given the associated costs of poor care and poor understanding and management of mental health in maternity, we shouldn't just come up with crap like that.

We should campaign for more facilities, including more single occupancy rooms, as there is a genuine need for it. We should campaign for more staff. We should campaign for more men to be able to give more support if needed. We should campaign for better understanding of mental health needs during pregnancy and childbirth.

Because its cost effective.

We shouldn't tell women that they should shove off home so that the majority are better off, because that is letting down the minority, who may have additional needs AND BE MORE VULNERABLE. The NHS proves the right to the most appropriate care for your health needs - this means that the needs of the few should not be compromised, for the needs of the many, even in this cash strapped ages ESPECIALLY since various reports have come out and said that investment in this area would bring about long term SAVINGS.

Except that every time this thread comes up women, just justify poor care and lack of facilities saying that we can't afford it. So, it doesn't happen because women are defeatist from the start which in turn means there is no political pressure or motivation to do bugger all.

I just find attitudes which tell women to put up and shut up, more misogynistic than the idea that men might want to have a role in their child's birth and somehow this isn't their place.

Its all very depressing and self defeating.

Until women raise their expectations and stop accepting shit care themselves then it will never improve.

This is why I do welcome the input from men's group on the subject as I do feel it might be the only way that we will get that 'rocket up the arse' change in mentality and political pressure to actually start tackling the problems that exist rather than women just sucking it up and 'being miserable' (which tends to be a real belittling and silencing tactic of women) about it all in the process.

There are many ways that men being interested in birth could really improve services for women across the board, but instead threads like this always just focus on the negatives rather than what positives it could bring, if we channelled this demand in the right way, so that instead of being a 'luxury and demand' of men, it served the 'genuine needs' of many women.

We'll neglect the fact that many men want to be their for their partners, due to failings within the NHS and the desire to be there is often one born out of wanting to protect their partners from this dreadful attitude to women which is displayed and carried out by other women. Yet women must be protected from men... because no one ever questions the really horrid views and attitudes and behaviours of women that relate to childbirth that can have deep and lasting consequences both mental and physical.

But hey ho, do carry on...

Handywoman thank you for posting your experience.

Inconsiderate, rude or behaviour which makes other women feel uncomfortable or vulnerable is totally unacceptable, and no man should be allowed to stay on the ward if they do so. However I don't believe in holding all men to this standard and those exceptions should be dealt with.

I don't think that people are holding all men up the standards of those are aggressive on maternity wards where women are vulnerable. But that as a result of allowing all men to stay overnight, there will be women who will have to share space with aggressive and abusive men (and sometimes women). It won't be an uncommon thing, and it's something that should not happen.

I agree that such twattery should be dealt with, but experiences on this thread show that it doesn't happen, often because the resources are so low, so extra security to deal with it won't happen, so that leaves removing such men to the staff, what happens if the midwife gets lamped after asking some twat to leave? What happens if an emergency happens with a patient and staff are not available because they are trying to remove aggressive men?

I don't know about anyone else, but I would also be too scared to report to the man who is being twat as he will be right there within earshot, knowing I'm reporting him, if he gets a telling off and doesn't get removed would be very uncomfortable sleeping in a room with a man who has just watched you report him for being aggressive. Fuck that.

I was totally overwhelmed by the large family of a woman in the bed next to me - they used to turn up mob handed, making a racket and taking up all the chairs, even sitting on the end of my bed. Then loudly whispering comments about all the other babies in the ward. I always suffer really bad baby blues in the first 48 hours and they reduced me to tears more than once. I don't think anyone should be allowed to visit for more than an hour at at time and then only one or two visitors at a time. The postnatal ward is a lovely time to bond and enjoy peace - for the second or subsequent children it's probably the last time you'll have that chance with your baby.

Sorry if it's been said already but last year (I think) MN were asked to support a campaign for this and started a thread asking MNers for their opinions - would we like them to support a campaign to have father's stay overnight and the consensus was NO.

It made for very very sad reading and I'm glad that we were consulted first!!

There's a lot of sexism towards men in these replies! And most of the complaints would only be solved by banning all men from post natal wards, which seems quite unnecessary!

My feelings were that it's outdated really that women should have to cope with the needs of a newborn overnight alone (assuming that the majority of partners would be assisting were they at home) and generally isn't great for recovery. I don't think that's a lack of staff problem as its the parents responsibility to care for the newborn not the midwives. Fathers, if it were practical, should be given the opportunity to help care for their newborn and partner while in the hospital setting, if this is how it is to continue at home.