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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

642 replies

CallaLilli · 24/11/2015 11:54

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

OP posts:
Devora · 27/11/2015 13:17

Ah, I've just read the other thread. Yes, there may be a few burnt bridges there Grin

abbieanders · 27/11/2015 14:17

I personally find this focus on men's rights in childbirth alarming. There is considerable resistance to the idea that a laboring woman is entitled to ban people from the delivery room, and now it appears that for some women, there may be pressure to eliminate a presumed respite after birth.

It's notable that this only happens where women's dignity or comfort is under discussion. There no no suggestion - ever - that a man should have an audience at his medical procedure against his wishes, nor that he should have to tolerate a whole load of people making his recovery less comfortable.

sakura · 27/11/2015 14:22

Why is there a campaign?
Men just do what they want basically.
If men want to stay overnight, they will end up being able to do so.

InternalMonologue · 27/11/2015 15:15

RE: the survey
DC1: 2013, premature labour, CLU, 1 day spent on Antenatal ward (in a 4 bed bay), 5 days on Postnatal ward (in private room). The Antenatal ward had the same daytime visiting hours for partners as the postnatal ward. Horrendous. I was in early labour, with a man with a stomach bug visiting his partner who was in due to high blood pressure who spent most of the day loudly vomiting in the ensuite which was meant to be for us, the patients. Postnatal ward I had my own room, DP had to go home at night. It was quite quiet when DS was born, so there was plenty of help available at night when I needed it. During the day the day room way typically treated like the personal living space of some men, and the midwives had to waste time reminding people that the tea facilities were for the patients only. I had to collect my own meals from the kitchen at the day room, frequently held up by men partners asking for extra portions for themselves.

DC2: 2015, MLU, one overnight stay. DP could have stayed overnight on the MLU (en-suite delivery rooms) but he didn't because we had DC1 to look after. I saw one midwife all night, as it was the MLU and it was very busy with women giving birth. I went home first thing the next morning. DD didn't sleep at all her first night, so neither did I. But DP slept because he was at home, which meant that he was better equipped to help me and care for DD during the day.

I'm against anyone who is not a patient staying overnight other than in exceptional circumstances, and only in private rooms. As always when a thread like this comes up, the vast majority of the issues would be solved by better funding for midwife and auxiliary nurse care. Not by having extra bodies making a nuisance of themselves.

It annoys the shit out of me that even childbirth can't be exclusively about women and babies - the people who have to actually go through it. How about campaigning for 1) better maternity care and 2) better paternity leave independent of maternity leave? If a man feels that missing a handful of nights is justification for being a shit dad, there's bigger issues at play.

venusinscorpio · 27/11/2015 16:08

I've no children thus far, but the awful experiences of substandard care and protection documented by so many of you on this thread is exactly what a the mainstream modern feminist movement should be "centring". But we all know they don't, and whose rights they do prioritise. And sadly the WEP is no different.

RedToothBrush · 27/11/2015 16:35

I do find the protectiveness of the ward system in maternity in the UK bizarre with regard to staffing and safety. Its bizarre as so many 1st world countries use private rooms as the standard. Notably there are many countries where its accepted that men can stay overnight. It is a debate which in many regards is peculiarly British in nature.

With regard to cost of doing this in the UK (as I am aware that private health care does make things slightly different elsewhere around the world). However I believe that the maternity in NHS Scotland has switched to a private room system rather than a ward one. So why can't England and Wales do the same? I know of at least one maternity hospital close to me in England which is private rooms only too. I also can think of several others close by who have undergone massive redevelopment in recent years, so the opportunity and ability to put private rooms in was there but not taken. Why? Its not just down to building cost. There are inherent expectation of standards that are shared by the public which mean we don't challenge or question planning decisions of this nature.

As highlighted on this thread there are many reasons why someone might NEED a private room, regardless of whether they have a partner stay, and at present these needs are not being properly acknowledged never mind catered for. I do feel that even those who have had this need have been in part accepting of this and making justifications about the need to prioritise the need for a private room case by case. I find it appalling. It should be that anyone who has a good case for a private room, shouldn't be competing with other women for who has the greatest need. They should all get one.

I think there is a huge case to answer due to the higher costs of poor care in the longer term. Short termist thinking is costing women (and men) not only physically and mentally but also financially because the focus is so short sighted. It is so frustrating when so many people are buying into this bullshit of 'can't afford'. Lets please put this into the context it deserves. One of the biggest costs to maternity departments is not staff, nor even facilities (unless they are PFI which is another debate entirely). Its INSURANCE. So poorly performing hospitals get charged higher premiums so are put in a position where they can't afford as many staff as better performing hospitals, which is utterly absurd! Its certainly not improving safety, performance or patient well being in any way is it? Frankly that one is scandalous. Look at things like how much agency nursing is costing the NHS and why don't we have a NHS version which has to be used first.

People are just not asking the right questions or looking at the right thing. And unfortunately the political nature of the NHS means that politicians of all colours make political mileage of it, and have no real interest in sorting out the problems as they can win as many votes through doing fuck all apart from kicking the football a bit further down the road and blaming someone else for problems. No one is really holding anyone accountable. That is the fault of ALL the political parties who don't want to admit any responsibility or take on the challenges of sorting out the mess.

Stop buying the political bullshit and accepting poor management and making long posts justifying how we can't afford things and we need to ration things. Its a myth. All you are doing the arguing on behalf of others who you probably can't stand politically, allowing them to get away without answering the real questions. Its funny, because everyone is busy criticising the WEP here yet are then supporting the status quo of mainstream politics. I don't see the WEP as any better or worse tbh yet they have 'lost votes' because they have an idea which at its heart isn't any worse than anyone else you might vote for.

I do believe that half the problem is that we have all become so culturally accepting of sub standard maternity wards that the suck it up / defeatist attitude is the one that is silencing and preventing effective campaigning more than anything else.

howabout · 27/11/2015 17:10

I am Scottish and do find it very striking that people on this thread (and on QT last night) seem to take it for granted that the NHS can only afford substandard care. It is difficult to compare NHS funding because of differences in population density etc. However the SNP are being criticised for having underspent on health in Scotland. They have just built one of the most technologically advanced hospitals in the World in Glasgow. It is ALL private rooms with private en suites.

Not all maternity wards in Scotland are private rooms but it is certainly the direction of travel. There is no move to have partners staying overnight. Most mothers go home within 24 hours of giving birth unless there are complications.

There have been teething problems with the new hospital and changes to the organisation of the nursing staff to match the physical layout. The additional resources required are in cleaning staff, as at changeover a whole room rather than just a bed has to be cleaned. Better cleaning and segregation of patients must surely lead to better outcomes and infection control and lower costs.

cleaty · 27/11/2015 18:36

here should be many more private ensuite rooms for everyone who wants it. Personally I much prefer being on a ward. Private ensuite rooms are lonely unless you have lots of visitors.

FannyTheChampionOfTheWorld · 28/11/2015 10:19

I'm horribly afraid you're right devora.

MissBattleaxe · 28/11/2015 13:27

I do believe that half the problem is that we have all become so culturally accepting of sub standard maternity wards that the suck it up / defeatist attitude is the one that is silencing and preventing effective campaigning more than anything else.

sad but true. We accept it's crap and underfunded because we are not shown any glimpse of hope that it's possible for anything to improve.

Itisbetternow · 28/11/2015 14:19

Having delivered a pre term baby who went into special care and I was left on ward with very serious pre eclampsia I would have loved my partner to be there to cuddle me etc. HOWEVER in reality, my insides were falling out, my gown was too short, I was forever being poked and tested for blood pressure etc I would not have wanted men staying on the ward. I needed medical treatment - I wasn't staying in a hotel. I would vote against this policy. Let women deliver and recover in private please.

OneFlewOverTheDodosNest · 28/11/2015 17:57

Well I'd vote for you RedToothBrush - any chance you want to stand for the WEP and convince them to implement some halfway decent maternity policies instead of this shambles?

OldFarticus · 30/11/2015 13:06

Seconded RedToothBrush Wink

I thought those following this thread would be interested to see the results of my enquiries at the hospital where I would give birth if I return to the UK before then (which is Liverpool Women's Hospital). Happily, they appear to kick out visitors at 8pm and what they have to say about same sex accomodation makes interesting reading:

*Every patient has the right to receive high quality care that is safe, effective and respects their privacy and dignity. Liverpool Women's NHS Foundation Trust is committed to providing all patients with same sex accommodation, because it helps to safeguard their privacy and dignity when they are often at their most vulnerable.

Same sex accommodation means:
•The room where your bed is will only have patients of the same sex as you
•Your toilet and bathroom will be just for your gender, and will be close to your bed area

We are proud to confirm that all our patients have been cared for in same sex accommodation.*

I understand that all hospitals have a target for patients being treated in same sex accomodation and it would be interesting to see how the hospitals implementing a "partners overnight" policy would respond when questioned as to how they are ensuring this target is met. I am still undecided about delivering here because I have read so many horror stories.

The only "feminist issue" here is piss poor postnatal care - such an Orwellian policy would never have seen the light of day if wards were properly run, resourced and managed.

FlipperSkipper · 30/11/2015 15:31

OldFarticus, it is my understanding that liverpool womens do allow partners to stay overnight, but only if you pay for a private room. (I've not given birth there, but was planning to with my last pregnancy).

OldFarticus · 30/11/2015 16:41

Thank you Flipper - it wouldn't bother me in the least if the partners were in a single rrom, so it's good to know. I was told that only Arrowe Park had single rooms though - perhaps it has changed? (Plenty of time, not even pregnant yet!)

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2015 16:43

Arrowe Park I think is all single rooms or the majority are at least.

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