To think the WEP should not be campaigning for men to be allowed to stay overnight on postnatal wards?

[CallaLilli]

I was just having a look at some of the objectives for the WEP and noticed they have a Stand Up for Dads campaign. Now whilst I agree with a lot of what they say on that page, one of the things they say is:

“hospitals don’t seem to take dads seriously. Many treat new fathers and new co-parents as visitors who have to stick to visiting hours or at best sleep in a chair. All new mums should be allowed a partner with them 24-7 if they choose.”

Countless women on MN have spoken of their experiences on postnatal wards and the majority of them have said that they would not want men staying on the ward 24/7, at a time when they feel at their most vulnerable. Am I BU to think that a party set up for women should be more considerate of what women want?

I don't think it's bad that men want to be there ohbehave, but for reasons that have been spelled out to you dozens of times, them being there is going to have negative consequences. And now are you going to bother answering my question? You've said you think if the no-men bay is full and a woman wanting a no-man bed comes onto the postnatal ward, you think she should get priority. How do you envisage this working in the middle of the night, with inadequate staffing levels? What do you plan to do when dads kick off and/or refuse to leave in that situation, because they will? Do you see that putting the onus on the woman who's just given birth to speak up and be the one whose choice is responsible for booting a load of ads out is unacceptable?

Also, you can fuck off with your Stasi shit. Throwing your toys out of your pram because nobody agrees with your arguments, because they're shit and because what you think could happen is completely unrealistic. The problem isn't with the people disagreeing with you. It's with you.

"The point is, hygge, what makes the person who doesn't want partners present wishes more important than those that does? I am not saying that either is more important than the other, just that they both are as important as each other."

No that's not the point. It's a point. It's your point. It's not the only point. You're ignoring the very well made points of everybody you don't agree with.

In pregnancy, the moment a woman is pregnant, her rights over her body and her baby come before any rights of the man who fathered it.

This is an extension of that. As a woman in hospital who has just given birth, her rights to recover in hospital without being surrounded 24/7 by visitors who by their very presence make her feel stressed and uncomfortable have to come first.

Because it's a hospital, not a hotel. There are not the funds, the facilities, the staff, the space, to accommodate all these extra people 24/7, even if they were decent people who behaved themselves (debatable from the experiences on this thread, including my own which you have ignored).

In an ideal world maybe we could say that everyone's wishes could be accommodated, but it's not and it's very simplistic to be going on about 'rights' and 'most important wishes because in a hospital the most important right is to receive good medical care from good medical professionals. In an ideal world, having partners on the wards wouldn't be the first thing that should change to ensure better care in hospitals.

I've already posted about how hospitals can and do make exceptions when their is real need, not that anyone would want to be the exception in my experience.

But again they have to have the facilities to allow them to make those exceptions, and they don't have the space or resources to provide those spaces to everybody.

Hygge. 2 points.

Firstly I am talking 2nd parent. Not just man.

Secondly I am not talking about the "rights" of the father. I am talking about the rights of the mother that wants or needs her partner to be there.

I am certainly not ignoring others views. I think Fanny and I have gone from a full on against each other to discussing both sides. It is just that some refuse that there will be reasons a partner may need to be there.

Come on fanny. It's not thAt people don't agree with my view. The Stasi comment is aimed that those that refuse to accept that my view is as valid as theirs.

I'm not sure where people think the money/space is going to come from for a separate maternity ward for partners to stay overnight.

The NHS doesn't have bottomless pockets and I think most people would prefer that funds are spent on things which are actually vital needs.

I've had one quick, straightforward hospital birth - home within hours - and one home birth, so I haven't experienced a horrendous post-natal ward, but previous posters have painted a grim picture, and it doesn't take much imagination to work out how it would feel to have someone gawping and listening while you tried to discuss intimate matters with a midwife.

Most women will never be as vulnerable at any other point in their life as they are after giving birth. No-one would expect them to undergo gynaecological examinations, or discuss their genitals with a GP with a strange man listening in, so why on earth should they be expected to abandon all claim on basic dignity and privacy when they've just given birth?

Well said, Buffy.

Ohbehave you might be talking second parent, but I am talking about patients.

If the second parent is not also a patient in need of medical care, they don't need room and board in a hospital.

If the parent who has actually given birth needs additional help while she is in hospital, she would be best served in getting that, in hospital, from medical staff. And everybody would be better off asking for that to happen.

If their is a genuine need, not a want, but a need, then if the hospital can make it happen they usually do.

If she just wants her partner there, well her wants don't come above what other patients need, which is the right to recover in peace without non-patients staying overnight on the wards.

You can't just say second parent either. Some people won't have a second parent on the scene, so they would be wanting to know why they couldn't have their mother or sister or best friend or whoever stay overnight instead. Some patients just wouldn't be comfortable with this, as the stories above prove. Female visitors have been just as bad as male ones in some cases.

And for all that it would be nice for every patient to get everything they want while they are in hospital, the NHS is hard pushed to give them everything they need. They have limited funds and resources and they have to prioritise.

I would rather that my hospital had the staff and facilities available to give me the scan I needed at night or at the weekend. When I needed a scan on a Friday night I had to wait until Monday morning to get it.

Are you really saying that your idea of having second parents comes before that? Because I'd rather they spent their money making sure patients who need something like that can have it immediately, regardless of whether it's Friday night or a Tuesday afternoon.

They've also been raising money for a cold cot, so parents of stillborn babies can have longer with their child before they have to say goodbye. Your night on the ward as a non-patient doesn't really come before that either.

At work we've just had a charity event to raise money for pet scanner at our hospital. Again, something that I would prioritise before providing rooms for people who are not patients to stay in hospital.

When they can pay for all the staff and equipment they need to save lives and help patients, maybe then they could look at making space for everyone to have a safe, private room so they can have overnight guests, but not before.

The NHS has limited funds and resources, and what they do have needs to go to giving all the patients the best care, and I'm sorry but even though at times I would have liked my DH to be able to stay with me, that best care was never going to come from him, or from you, or from anybody but proper medical staff.

And that's who we need overnight on the wards right now, the proper medical staff who can help all patients as they need.

Buffy. Point 5 is irrelevant- it's not about men it's about partners. I know at least one same sex couple where both partners have given birth.

And the point is still valid. Some people will actually recover far quicker in an environment where they have their partners there.

I have never said that the needs of a few should outweigh the needs of many - just that consideration should be given to both sides.

There you go nothing pouty about that.

TBH I rather liked the girly camaraderie on my post natal ward (8 beds IIRC). Much queuing for the bath/hairstyling and talk of regaining slim figures did a lot for morale!

I posted yesterday because this policy would influence my decision on whether to give birth in the UK or to ignore my DH's wishes and deliver in my temporary "home". (I am not even pregnant yet, just worried!)

I spoke to DH last night and he believes this policy does not apply in our area (where deliveries take place at a women's hospital), but he is going to make enquiries with one of the other consultants to see whether this is the case. If it is, he agrees that I should not deliver there. I intend to make my views on this policy abundantly clear if I have any ante-natal testing in the UK. On the one hand this policy is good news for the NHS (less attractive PN wards means lower extenditure on obstetric care!), but on the other hand, how long can the NHS be considered a high quality care provider if it allows its wards to turn into zoos? It is already some way behind other health systems in that it still has wards rather than single or double rooms. If it then allows randoms to sleep on the floor in those wards, then it is another leap backwards imo. Unfortunately I suspect a newborn will have to catch something like TB from a visitor before they will notice the blindingly fucking obvious.

Another issue - albeit probably not a popular one - is that for many women this would be culturally unacceptable. Will they be exempt? My concern is that we will create a two tier system where women whose objections are deemed "acceptable" (e.g. on religious grounds) will be accepted. I think this is unfair. I do think it is extremely important to object strenuously and vociferously if confronted with overnight ward guests. It's easy to take advantage of women who will often be frightened and vulnerable and/or take the path of least resistance (whether because they are naturally people-pleasers or through fear of getting even worse care) - I suspect this is why the policy seems to have been introduced without much fanfare, just "suck it up, ladies!"

I wonder if the MEP are being paid by the Portland....it would explain a lot!

The reason people aren't accepting that your view is as valid as theirs is because it isn't, ohbehave. You have the same right to an opinion as theirs, but that doesn't make both views equally valid. And yours doesn't make sense anyway. You claim to think the women who want their partners there have the same rights as those who don't, but you admit that in a conflict, those who don't want men should take precedence. Which is great, but it does mean you don't think both have the same entitlement. You can't believe both of those things.

And you still refuse to answer questions about how you think this would work if an already overstretched midwife has to chuck out half a dozen blokes at 4am, the feasibility of this and consequences if she manages it.

PlaysWellWithOthers- you just said everything I was thinking.

What Buffy said.

I can't see there being anymore money available to provide everyone with a private room, and as already had been pointed out, this would require extra staff because you can't glance around like you can on wards, you'll need someone extra to deal with the extra requests, you'll need extra facilities so that everyone isn't using patient toilets etc, parking etc.

It's not gonna happen anytime soon and I doubt it will happen at all.

Talking about dad's being there on mixed wards on a want to basis. Dad's wanting to be there from the start is great, but women need their rights respecting.

A dad not being able to stay overnight can still be a good parent. They can still change nappy, nurse, hug, sing, during the day at visiting times.

The consequences of a dad who wants to be there 24/7 being told no to staying overnight won't be anywhere near like the consequences of a woman who needs to be there 24/7 having partners forced on them. Wouldn't be surprised if PND went up, and the state of MH services are just as shocking, so women would end up being met down on the wards, and then again with MH services, shouldn't be allowed to happen so that someone who doesn't have a need for hospital services can stay overnight.

A good dad will still be a good if he's allowed to stay or not, imo.

Would encouraging dad's to take the paternity leave be more beneficial to his bonding with baby than a few days on a cramped ward? I'm thinking he will have much more time, and quality time too, also helping to get into a routine and mum can be supported at home by him too instead of just being left to it once she's home (not all dad's go straight back to work, but many do)
I don't know the figures but it might be cheaper than catering for the extra non patients in hospital?

Change Dad to partner in my last post.

I still the extra people on a ward 24/7 regardless of sex, will be a problem.

I can't believe this is even an issue. I needed to stay a few days after ds and was lucky enough to have a private room. The whole ward had a sort of breakfast room where you had to go if you wanted any cereal etc. On my first day, dh offered to go and get my breakfast and I just assumed he wouldn't be allowed. I just assumed women in a similar state to me (post surgery shuffle , still bleeding, catheter, in pyjamas, looking generally shit) wouldn't want to be faced with strange men while they tried to get their breakie.

I was horrified when I carried my catheter along like a handbag and was stood in a room full of men all chatting about the football. I appreciate that women need their partners for support but this needs to be balanced with the need for privacy /dignity when you're trying to recover from what is presumably a birth that didn't quite go to plan if an overnight stay is needed.

At work we've just had a charity event to raise money for pet scanner at our hospital. Again, something that I would prioritise before providing rooms for people who are not patients to stay in hospital.

Dh said similar last night when we were talking, he said that even if maternity care was brilliant and well staffed he thought any extra money should go into other services rather than build/create extra space for non patients.

He said there will always be some department who doesn't have enough equipment, and that he would feel like a shit using resources he doesn't need when there's parents who can't be with their very ill dc because their hospital is too far away and there's no accommodation for example.

I know budgets don't work like that but I get where he's coming from.

FannyTheChampionOfTheWorld excellent post at 10:55.

Ohbehave this policy is part of a campaign objective called Stand up for Dads. Not partners, dads, which is why we keep mentioning men on this thread. I guess you could say the objective is pretty heteronormative as not all families have a parent of each sex, but that's probably a discussion for another thread!

No contribution from the WEP yet? Don't they do social media monitoring? Or have they just written us off as a nest of vipers? I really do wish they would come online and talk to us - maybe we should ask MN to set up a webchat?

I'm just not sure they give a shit about what MNers think, Devora.

Sophie Walker came onto this thread - eventually, after a lot of tweeting from us - because people wanted to know why WEP had backed Tara Hudson being moved to a women's prison. Sophie produced some vague platitudes, announced that they think anyone is a woman if they want to be, and buggered off.

It has completely put me off the WEP that they are campaigning for something that benefits Dads and for something that the majority of women quite vociferously don't want ( barring a few exceptions).

Why not see what women want and then campaign for it? Or is that too logical? I tell you this, they certainly do not represent my wishes. As my first impression of the WEP, they've lost me as a potential supporter.

He said there will always be some department who doesn't have enough equipment, and that he would feel like a shit using resources he doesn't need when there's parents who can't be with their very ill dc because their hospital is too far away and there's no accommodation for example.

Totally agree with this. DH's patients sometimes have to have chemo on hard back chairs because there are not enough beds/comfy seats in the clinic. And yet we are buying chairs for healthy non-patients. Absolutely nutso.