to think if my 4 year old wants me to take him to his classroom that shouldnt be a problem?

[firefly78]

he's 4 for goodness sake. he loves school and if he wants me to take him to his classroom door rather than go all the way in on his own i dont see why that's an issue. Teacher shouted over to him today saying "come on ds otherwise mummy will have to leave you at the gate". Its irrationally upset me. silly I know but i think they are still so little. Hes coped brilliantly with school, loves reading etc and we have just had a great report. he has an older sibling at school who runs in happily. Oh amd im most definitely not the only parent who does this. He ran in happily before half term cos they got a sticker but dont know so he doesn't see the point! i just think they are still little and i dont know why school tries to make them grow up so fast!!!

I know that DD's teacher has an egg timer and so communal toys at school can be regulated should such an issue occur. That way children are taught that they get a turn rather than it being something that should be shared instantly

But that IS teaching children to share, no one ever said it had to be instant. The fact that the teacher has an egg timer just shows that these situations do occur.

And, like I said, I do appreciate why you may feel that your child does not have to share a special or new toy.

As parents we all felt strongly that training children that their wants and needs are usurped by anyone else coming along and wanting the things wasn't the right thing to do

Nobody said that childrens wants and needs should be usurped by other children. But there's nothing wrong with teaching them that other childrens wants and needs should at least be taken into consideration, and that your own childs needs are not more important than those of others.

I promise you, at some point you will come across this. I took my (then) 7 year old DD to the park, where there was a zip line. There was a small queue of children waiting to use it, while this boy (also about 7) was having a go. He slid down the zip line, then pulled it back to the start. The next child in the queue reached for it, but the boy jumped back on and had several more goes. I did suggest to him that maybe he would let another child have a go, but his mum snapped at me that he was using it, and he continued to use it until all the other children went away.

Once he was gone, the children came back and took it in turns to have a slide each, joining the back of the queue after each go.

Do you think the mum was right to say he could continue as long as he wanted, or should he have shared? What makes his wants and needs more important than all the other children?

Do you think the mum was right to say he could continue as long as he wanted, or should he have shared? What makes his wants and needs more important than all the other children?

Of course not. That's a pretty extreme example though.

Children are not (generally) natural 'sharers', a quick glimpse of most toddler groups will have at least one toddler with a toy in a death-grip that they definitely do not want to share. This carries on into nursery, where they learn that the world does not revolve around them and yes, they do have to share (even if Mummy says they don't have to). Same goes for taking turns. There's often a child who will sit at the top of the slide, knowing full well that there's a queue waiting behind them.

Children can be mini control-freaks, they do need taught. It would be great if parents did it at home, unfortunately many don't, which is why teachers then have to spend (lots) of time working on this in school. It does the child no favours to not teach this early, as they are often very confused/distressed that they have to in school (because there is more than one child in the room). Same with children who always get to direct play/win at home, they're not learning more advanced interpersonal skills needed for group work like that.

DisappoiintedOne I don't think it is that extreme, it happens a lot with children who consider their wants to be more important.

Not one is ever told they have to give something up because someone else wants it. If you never tell your child to take turns, or share (again, it doesn't have to be instant), you run the risk of it being your child who doesn't know how to take turns. Or you are leaving it for someone else to teach them - play group worker , teacher , other parents etc

Read what I said again. We've never had any problems with hogging, either with this group of friends or with strangers at playgrounds etc. No more than a gentle reminder that someone else would like a turn when they've finished theirs has ever been needed. They're usually over sharing if anything (we end up having to refuse the 10-20 toys they want each child to take home to their houses to "borrow". )

No more than a gentle reminder that someone else would like a turn when they've finished theirs has ever been needed

But surely that is teaching your child to share? You are pointing out that other children need a turn too. What would you do if they refused to let another child have a go on the swing (or whatever it is) after an appropriate amount of time. If you would ask your child to give up the swing, you ARE teaching them to share.

This is the thread that keeps on giving !

This is the thread that keeps on giving !

futureme nope, my parents are always early for everything.

As some other poster pointed out its more likely linked to my dyspraxia (diagnosed) and possible undiagnosed ADHD.

This is the thread that keeps on giving

Innit?!! I do wonder what this future generation of non-sharing, special snowflake toddlers will be like as adults though.

Probably turning up when they feel like it leaving friends waiting and thinking it's everyone else that has the problem.for being pissed off

slaps own wrist

A career in politics then?

"Also it doesn't take years to learn to read. It takes an amount of time that varies VERY strongly with the age and ability of the child.

It might take a month aged 7. It takes years aged 3."

No, learning to read and write English fluently enough to be able to actually use it for learning purposes (i.e. read books and worksheets with comprehension, write useful answers to questions, read what the teacher has written on the board quickly and easily) takes 2-3 years because of our ghastly writing system. Hence we start at 4-5, so that children are ready to use their reading in learning content (science, social science etc.) by about age 7.

Other languages' writing systems (say, French or German) are quicker to learn to read and write, and you can get from zero to fluency in about a year, so they don't start till about 6.

Finnish has the easiest writing system to learn in the whole of Europe. You can go from zero to fluency in less than 3 months. So they can get away with not starting till 7.

I went to a traditional school at 4 and a half. My mum is adamant that by 5 years old the whole class could read.

My son could read before he started school then just got better at it! He could read Spanish by about 5 too.

My DP could read beforestarting school at 5 years of age. Also very common in Victorian times for upper class boys to be able to read by that age, and to be tackling very complex books at a much younger age than children would now.

I actually think most children are capable of far more than we give them credit for.

I have been watching The Secret Life of 4 Year Olds. Even at that age, children decide not to play with other children who are too bossy or do not play fairly. If children don't learn these things, then they will end up sadly with very few friends.

I agree Cleaty

I thought in victorian times they had governesses and played outdoors a lot until they were sent away to school older than we start!

Can people really not tell the difference between setting arbitrary rules with no explanation and setting real rules on the basis of direct consequences?

It was a way back now, but people seem to be implying that if you take time to work around tantrum situations, negotiate with toddlers, give them buy in to all the decision making processes you can do, then you automatically have no rules and your child will never learn to share.

My child has learned to share the same way other kids do...by practicing. We got around shopping, got house work done, did some reading together all without issue and totally without bullying, bossing, or any arbitrary rules. I just asked her if she wanted to join in and she did.

Kids aren't actually stupid or deliberately annoying. If you explain why you are doing something they usually come along for the ride without argument...because they like you and like being a part of things that you like doing.

Schools have to have lots of extra rules that can't easily be explained because of the crowd control issues. None of these rules transfer into the adult world....unless you still have to stick you hand up and ask permission to go to the loo at work....which I suppose some people might. Or engage in a daily act of worship at work...although that is a different issue.

You also can't operate everyone studying whatever currently floats their boat at the level they are currently at in a class full of 4/5 yo, which is the transparently optimum way for a child to learn.

Worst of all we are now seeing a huge change in her friends that have started school. Boy friends that used to love playing with dolls and dressing up now refuse to do anything but scuffle with each other and rave about superheros, girl friends are now suddenly into practicing being spiteful....its all 'well I am your best friend so you aren't allowed to speak to anyone else'...then 5 minutes later, 'I'm not your friend you can't play with me anymore' bullshit.

While some of this social behaviour makes it into adulthood I can genuinely say I can't remember that last time an adult went out of their way to make me feel shit (if you don't count MN anyway).

School seems to focus and intensify the gender stereotyping....maybe just the old mob mentality thing. I genuinely think that children are way less accepting of difference than adults.

It was a way back now, but people seem to be implying that if you take time to work around tantrum situations, negotiate with toddlers, give them buy in to all the decision making processes you can do, then you automatically have no rules and your child will never learn to share

I don't think anyone was implying that (not that I recall anyway). But there can come a point where a child will refuse to do something despite all the explanations, cajoling, persuading and negotiation. At that point, if it's something important like getting in the car othewise you will be late for work, they are just going to have to get into the car whether they like it or not! If it's not important, then fine, let it go.

Worst of all we are now seeing a huge change in her friends that have started school. Boy friends that used to love playing with dolls and dressing up now refuse to do anything but scuffle with each other and rave about superheros, girl friends are now suddenly into practicing being spiteful....its all 'well I am your best friend so you aren't allowed to speak to anyone else'...then 5 minutes later, 'I'm not your friend you can't play with me anymore' bullshit

I do agree that this can happen (not always, but sometimes). But all that 'bullshit' needs to be addressed at some point, if children are going to learn to be around other children. They learn how to communicate with other children, what will work and what won't, and what the consequences of their actions are. They need to learn this at some point, whether it's at the age of 3, 5 or 9. For what it's worth, in my experience, it's worse at about the age of 9 or 10, long after the compulsory education age in any country.

I don't actually think that 'bullshit' is a necessary phase of social interaction.

As I said I don't encounter it as an adult so why should children be put through it? The same goes for bullying. It happens in schools - they are better than when I went but it still happens, you read heart breaking threads on here all the time. Bullying isn't tolerated in work places to anything like the same extent. I don't think my child (or anyones) needs an authentic bullying experience under her belt.

In the home ed group the key difference is that every other social interaction is with an adult rather than another child. The adults work hard to promote the level of inclusivity taken for granted by adults and stomp out any 'I don't like you, you smell funny' type BS immediately.

It is totally my hope, realistic or not, that my DD may never have to deal with being bullied, excluded or picked on.

Icebeing - I assume then that you intend to home educate for quite a few years. I totally understand that you want to protect your child from distress and upset, what parent wouldn't. And if you feel that school is the wrong place for your child, then I respect that.

Bullying, of course, is wrong. But social interaction between children, which can include a bit of scuffling, and a bit of "your not my best friend" is not what I'd call bullying, unless it goes on for an extended period.

It's really difficult to watch your child get upset. But there's a huge difference between a little bit of upset, and true distress. Crying can be an important part of children dealing with their emotions, a release of frustration etc.

At school, children come up against all sorts of challenges, and many of these are important in their development. There are also many very positive experiences a child has from being at school, and spending independant time with other children. It's not all bad!

Ohh I agree totally about crying being both necessary and useful. Thats why I took DD out of a nursery where she was constantly told not to cry. I believe a similar message would be delivered at school though? Don't cry because you are upsetting everyone else....

Don't worry - we aren't massively over protective....the home ed kids fall on their faces, into nettles and rivers and yes they fall out and make up and argue about who found which exciting stick....we just let them get on with that sort of stuff...but we can easily pick up on any serious or damaging stuff very very early on because the kid to adult ration is around 2:1.

A lot of the group are there because they were bullied at school and the panic on some of their faces when ever we cross paths with a class on an outing is utterly heart breaking.

Some challenges leave kids feeling stronger...but some kids get broken altogether and it takes YEARS to put that behind them. Its not a risk I am willing to take with a 4 yo who is very uncertain in herself, who suffers from a (minor) sensory processing disorder and who panics at the thought of having someone other than her parents making the rules.