To think that this is out of order, and there's no shame in being cis

[JellyKnockers]

NC as potentially outing.

DD is 17 and gay. She's very active in local LGBT societies and organisations and has campaigned against homophobic bullying in her school. Today she received this email from one of the organisations she's involved with, publicising an event for trans writers.

What's wrong with being cis ffs?! DD has herself been on the receiving end of abuse in the past for being 'transphobic', simply because she's challenged the anti cis opinion which she encounters regularly. This despite the fact that she campaigns for equality and has done since she came out aged 14. She's seriously considering giving up the work she does with various groups because of this attitude, which is all too common. She's even received death threats on Twitter because she's 'evil' enough to think that equality should be just that, and everyone should simply respect everyone else.

I'm livid, she's livid, are we BU?

OP, YANBU to be livid, and your daughter sounds as if she has for her shit together. But she can only be labelled cis if she accepts this, which she may. It is her choice

How on earth can you reject the concept of gender? Surely you can notice that the norms of behaviour for men and women have varied vastly historically and geographically - how can it all be an inevitable consequence of biological gender? That doesn't make any sense to me. Things that seem 'natural' and 'normal' for is regarding men and women are mostly the result of social conditioning.

how can it all be an inevitable consequence of biological gender?

A fallacy. Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct

I am not cis anything.

I am a woman.

Can't we all just get on without having to label ourselves and everyone else?

I agree, it shouldn't be used as an insult.

Most of the time, "what kind of woman" doesn't need a label either.

But when you do need to say "not-trans" there is a word for that.

If in your life you haven't needed that word, that's great. But sometimes people do need a word for that. And so there is one.

"A fallacy. Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct"

Yes, that's my point. I was responding to a poster who rejects the concept of gender. I just think that the vast differences in norms of the sexes across the ages speaks for itself in terms of proving that there is something called gender and it's different from the sex we're born with (though obviously normally identified with it).

If I offered someone a cup of black tea, I think they would think it was sone voguish new kind of tea they hadn't heard of.

Whereas what I really mean is normal, ordinary, tea. Not coffee that feels like it's really been tea all its life, for example.

Well cis or tea i dont like either

Surely you can notice that the norms of behaviour for men and women have varied vastly historically and geographically

Exactly, gender norms vary therefore they are societal constructs. There have been times when both men and women wore make up and similar garish clothing and high heeled shoes. Now this is not the case. Women wear heels/dresses, men wear boots/trousers. But that has jot always been the case, therefore gender concepts can change.

In work today I wore trousers, a grey, high necked top, Dr Marten boots and my partner's oversized hoodie covered in cat hair and horse slobber. None of these things are aligned to my gender. Does that make me a man? Nope

I don't deny the existence of gender, it's part of the social world around us, unfortunately. I do, however, RESIST it, which is a long way from identifying with it. #notcis

Whatever anyone says, to be cis, is to be the dominant group, and we're/ you're not about to start being discriminated against in any meaningful sense of the word, so I wouldnt worry about it

I'm a bit at this comment.

Vestal she's already had all that - a massive bullying campaign on Twitter which saw her called a terf and where she actually received rape and death threats. All because she challenged a meme that was being shared whose theme was 'down with cis'. The threats mainly came from adults twice her age and older. She was 15 at the time.

One thing she's noticed, and I have to agree, is that in certain sections of the LGBT+ community you have to be the right sort of LGBT+ or you're vilified for not being LGBT+ 'enough'. There's a label for everyone and if you refuse to pigeonhole yourself, you're out in the cold. Or worse still, they'll pigeonhole you themselves, and it won't be very complimentary. Imagine how much extra pressure that is for a young person coming to terms with who they are. The very organisations they might wish to turn to for advice will judge them - quite probably even more harshly - than the people in their own lives they are afraid to talk to in the first place.

Yes, that's my point. I was responding to a poster who rejects the concept of gender. I just think that the vast differences in norms of the sexes across the ages speaks for itself in terms of proving that there is something called gender and it's different from the sex we're born with (though obviously normally identified with it).

That was me rejecting gender I reject it because I see it harmful to both men and women. Gender says both should do, say and look certain ways, and I reject that concept.

I think LGBT is not a meaningful or helpful term for young gay women.

Can't we all just get on without having to label ourselves and everyone else?

Yes, yes, yes.

Unless I'm missing something ego I'd call men who don't hate the penis they have .... Men!

Obviously I support everyone's right to be gender neutral. I know one person who has worked hard to achieve this-- it's very difficult in our society but they are committed to it. For the rest of us, I think gender touches our lives whether we like it or not, in terms of how we speak, act, construct our sexuality, talk about ourselves etc. of course not every object and item of clothing is gendered, but enough of life is gendered to make it extremely difficult to avoid. It took me so long to get into the habit of using a gender neutral pronoun for my friend for example, and I realised that I think of every person as being so closely identified with their pronoun and hence their gender. I have also found it jarring speaking to people when unsure of their gender-preference/biological identity - it's really hard (for me) to relate to someone without knowing gender. I think that it's like language - a social construction that we grow up with and which becomes a part of ourselves and our brains.

If someone hates their penis, needs to take hormones to change their body and to help their body chemistry feel better, they are called trans. Transsexuals.

I am sure there are many men who do not hate their penis and who do not need to take feminising hormones to feel better.

If the first group are called transsexuals, what would you call the second group?

Men? Genuinely not sure if I've missed something there; I certainly don't intend to be cruel.

Why are these people allowed to post rape and death threats on twitter? Doesn't that breach the rules of twitter, if not break the law?

Am I missing something? I would call the second group men.

Phew, it's not just me!

I wonder whether the point was 'aaaaah but I meant FTM transsexuals so you're saying they're men aaaah'