To think that this is out of order, and there's no shame in being cis

[JellyKnockers]

NC as potentially outing.

DD is 17 and gay. She's very active in local LGBT societies and organisations and has campaigned against homophobic bullying in her school. Today she received this email from one of the organisations she's involved with, publicising an event for trans writers.

What's wrong with being cis ffs?! DD has herself been on the receiving end of abuse in the past for being 'transphobic', simply because she's challenged the anti cis opinion which she encounters regularly. This despite the fact that she campaigns for equality and has done since she came out aged 14. She's seriously considering giving up the work she does with various groups because of this attitude, which is all too common. She's even received death threats on Twitter because she's 'evil' enough to think that equality should be just that, and everyone should simply respect everyone else.

I'm livid, she's livid, are we BU?

The problem with cis/trans is that we don't have a word for biologically female that is distinct from our word for societally female. We use woman for both.

I don't like 'cis' but would be happy to identify as 'XX woman'.

Woman = biological woman
Trans woman = Trans woman
See - not complicated

I'd argue we don't need a word for 'societally female', particularly as I'm not really sure what you mean by that. A woman is biologically a woman, and is treated as a woman by society. Because she is a woman.

What is 'societally gemale'?

Sorry- societally female! I appear to be making up new words.

Anyway, what do you mean by 'societally female'?

And since we aim to get rid of being treated like crap by society because we are women, I don't think we need a word for that. Because every woman gets automatically treated like crap. (And in those cultures where it is possible to opt out of womanhood, there is a different word for those who opted out. Like "sworn virgin" or such.)

Society does not, in fact, treat transwomen like women. Transwomen still get male privilege. As proven by Jenner.

By societally female, I mean the female gender as oppose to female biology.

If society didn't tell women to like pink flowery things they wouldn't do so more than men....so liking pink flowery things is being societally female...

I am an XX woman I think, because I have a womb and breasts...and I have been conditioned to be deferential, to be nurturing, to be interested in breadth over specifics and to care about my appearance.

Actually hardly any of the conditioning has stuck so what I mostly feel is guilt that I don't give a crap about those things...that somehow I am failure as a woman...but that's a different issue.

Societally female I am a woman; I don't feel the need to qualify that in any way. Being a transwoman probably does require some explanation, therefore women who have previously been male are called transwomen.
When I call myself a woman I shouldn't have to clarify that I have no previously experience of being a man.

I do wonder for trans (XY) women if they think they are shit at maths and better at reading in the same way XX women are conditioned to think...or if they just like being demure or whatever it is they feel they can't do as men.

Feeling like your genitals are the wrong ones seems to be a whole different and more carefully defined area of body dismorphia that has nothing to do with societies gender stereotypes....

Noeffingidea Oh totally - it never ends. I got curb crawled when I was nine months pregnant! I mean, Jesus, if the enormous bump doesn't put them off, what hope is there? I'm a big girl though, I can take it (though I shouldn't have to, of course) but my daughter is only just six and she has already had to deal with catcalling. One gang of older teenagers shouted 'let's rape the baby' at her when we walked home from a swimming lesson, and another time one horrid bloke got in her face when we walked past and hissed 'your mummy looks like a slag. Do you want me to give her a little brother or sister for you?' Thank god she didn't understand it, but she was intimidated nonetheless. So we are viewed as targets for sexual harassment LITERALY from the cradle to the grave. It's not like I live in a slum either - just a normal working class neighbourhood in a northern market town, so I refuse to believe that my experiences are exceptional.

I guess this is why the argument for cis-privilege really offends me. There is nothing advantageous about growing up and living your life as a biological woman.

I now know what cis is and I'm not it.

You mean 'feminine' ice

@Edeline: Those monsters threatened to rape a six year old?!

Can you report them? Ok, I don't have much hope it would help any, but hey, those are child molesters!

Yeah Icebeing I think we already have words for what you're describing as 'societally female'- feminine and masculine.

Yup. I think it'd really important in these discussions to be as lrevisecas possible.

Female refers to biological sex.

A female person is a woman.

A woman is expected to behave in ways we call feminine. This is what we call gender.

So sex female

Gender role feminine.

Or not, as most feminists are very critical of gendered roles and expectations, a d aspects of femininity. [Grin]

Thsts all that "gender critical" means at its simplest.

And I recsll tbe immrtal words of Rebecca West about being a feminist because one is not s doormat...

Precise, not some weird word my phone made up

And I could go on (but don't on this phone) but gender is where it gets complex. Because gender is not a thing, but an ideological network or system, existing within and produced by another system - patriarchy.

This is where neo-liberals, invested in "identity politics" trip up - they see the individual's rights and privileged, but are less attuned to recognising the larger systems or networks or structures within which individuals are socialised.

'Societally female' is a flawed concept because it assumes that biological females can choose whether to be societally female or not. It's imposed upon us.

But trans people don't want to be defined as feminine; they believe that being feminine makes them women...which is why you end up with ridiculous and invented on the spot term like 'societal women'

oh I totally agree that the word is feminine....

so that would make a transexual woman a feminine man?

Not sure that quite covers it though...

Never hears of cis before. I suppose a term is needed as they can't call them 'normal' as that would be offensive (and I do agree with that just hard to express it right).

I don't agree a term is needed. Woman and trans woman are fine, don't you think?

my daughter is only just six and she has already had to deal with catcalling. One gang of older teenagers shouted 'let's rape the baby' at her when we walked home from a swimming lesson, and another time one horrid bloke got in her face when we walked past and hissed 'your mummy looks like a slag. Do you want me to give her a little brother or sister for you?' Thank god she didn't understand it, but she was intimidated nonetheless. So we are viewed as targets for sexual harassment LITERALY from the cradle to the grave. It's not like I live in a slum either - just a normal working class neighbourhood in a northern market town, so I refuse to believe that my experiences are exceptional

You don't think that those are exceptional experiences? Gangs of teenagers threatening to rape your 6 year old and a strange man telling her he's going to rape her mother?

Did you call the police and report these? I completely disagree that the majority of 6 year old girls are generally or commonly 'targets for sexual harassment' and have never seen anything like what you describe at age SIX.

@IceBeing: "Feminine man" would cover it if the trans didn't insist that they are "women".

I mean, if there was actual dysphoria for most of the trans, we'd need another word for that ("transwoman" would do), but as most of them seem to be fine with keeping their penises, I do not see why they should be called anything else but "feminine men".

@SummerNights: Well, I don't think those experiences are exceptional where she lives. Those teenagers certainly threaten other mothers with young children, too.

Same for the adult who threatened her.