Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

WIBU to ask MNers who think Trans Women are 'Chicks With Dicks' to ...

847 replies

KKCupCakes · 31/10/2015 21:49

Take a look at this article about supporting families of Transgender people by the Gires.org.uk Website to see why that view is so utterly incorrect and harmful?
www.gires.org.uk/assets/supporting-families.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Prettyinblue · 01/11/2015 08:21

I'm with Moosey too. Most people I'm friends with in rl are too. Being trains is hard enough. So much wasted energy from the feminist movement is spent on this one issue.

In my whole life I've properly met to my knowledge about 5 transpeople, most in Brighton where I lived. Whereas I have met 1000s of women, all of whom have knowingly or (often more worryingly) unknowingly been subjected at some time to discrimination because of their gender. The feminist movement should be spending a proportionate amount of energy on each issue and currently it is not. It has turned me off getting more involved, and gives the media easy fodder to sling at the movement yet again.

On the instances where trans issues could affect women there are far more pressing issues that needed to be tackled: take prisons, do you really think the biggest threat to women is having a trans women in with them, and the odd times that has caused a problem compared to the daily injustices they face. From the off the criminal justice system is completely skewed so women are more likely than to end up in prison, and with longer sentences than men for similar offences, once in prison they are more likely to kill themselves, self harm, be sexually assaulted than men. Those are the issues that need to be tackled with the greatest passion and urgency.

Prettyinblue · 01/11/2015 08:23

trans not trains. Though I'm sure being a train has some of its own problems Grin

HermioneWeasley · 01/11/2015 08:33

pretty my understanding is that feminists are being forced to spend time on this issue precisely because the real feminist causes keep being hijacked by TAs. Recent examples include criticism on Twitter in the tampon tax and world me trial health day for being transphobic and "cis sexist" and discussion on FGM being shut down because the terminology "FGM" is trans-exclusive.

And if we say "fuck off" then we are labeled TERFs and hounded with race and death threats. There is a group of TAs who want to define womanhood entirely on their terms and not fight for any of the issues which affect women because they are of no interest to them.

BertieBotts · 01/11/2015 08:36

Noodle I am in love. Not only for your fantastic post which cuts straight through the nonsense, but also because your name is my absolute favourite phrase out of that Dr. Seuss book and has been for at least twenty years :o

NerrSnerr · 01/11/2015 08:37

I'm another one with Moosey. I find it really difficult to get my head around the transphobia on mumsnet.

Prettyinblue · 01/11/2015 08:38

Then repsond once and ignore as I do to my kids. Don't, like Greer make such a big point about it.

Prettyinblue · 01/11/2015 08:39

Also send all death threats to the police to deal with.

SlaggyIsland · 01/11/2015 08:40

NerrSnerr can you explain what you are finding transphobic about some of the views? What are your thoughts on the concerns around women's issues getting hijacked?

TheXxed · 01/11/2015 08:48

PettyInBlue what is gender identity?

abbieanders · 01/11/2015 08:52

Then repsond once and ignore as I do to my kids. Don't, like Greer make such a big point about it.

This is the fresh, innovative thinking that will solve the problem. Treat adults like bold children.

TheXxed · 01/11/2015 08:52

Also petty I have campaigned for the closure of yarls wood, fundraised for my local refuge and raised money for abortion clinics in developing countries. I am also able to do all of those things whilst being critical of trans orthodoxy.

I don't need you to tell me how I should spend my time.

WIBU to ask MNers who think Trans Women are 'Chicks With Dicks' to ...
redleotard · 01/11/2015 08:54

The feminist movement should be spending a proportionate amount of energy on each issue and currently it is not.

Partially because feminists who don't buy into the "I feel like a women, therefore I am" are being no-platformed when they DO want to talk about other feminist issues.

Prettyinblue, Greer spoke and wrote about this issue YEARS ago. And was asked about it recently due to that ridiculous no-platforming thing at Cardif. She's not making big point about it. Quite the opposite. In her own words she "doesn't even want to talk about it".

Fighting against such censorship is not a "wasted effort", in my eyes.

alizondevice · 01/11/2015 08:55

Noodle, you are my hero! Flowers

I love Mumsnet as one of the few remaining places on the internet where women can speak frankly to other women about their issues--issues directly related to the experience of being born with a female body.

At its best, MN truly is consciousness raising, inspiring, and liberating, and I believe this is precisely what triggered the recent backlash troll attacks that brought down the site. But I hope the Mumsnetters never cave in, never give up, never silence their real, authentic voices.

OP YABVU

itsmine · 01/11/2015 08:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

redleotard · 01/11/2015 08:58

I haven't read much transgender FtoM being discussed in the same way.

Feminists tend to leave it up to the men to defend any rights they feel are being diluted.

alizondevice · 01/11/2015 08:58

X-posted with redleotard

Yes, Greer wants to speak about women and power, women's issues, but all certain interviewers ever want to discuss with her are trans issues. This is derailing.

VashtaNerada · 01/11/2015 09:03

OP, I think you've mucked up by choosing that as your title but I certainly share your disappointment at the attitude directed towards trans people. I've always found MN a bit of a refuge when times are tough but reading about trans here (I'm not trans myself but have lots of trans friends) always hits me in the gut.
FWIW, I do think it's reasonable to discuss how society informs our notions of gender, the damage of the patriarchy, the various types of privilege different groups experience, and the reasons why a vulnerable group of women (such as in a women's refuge) might feel intimidated by a male-bodied person.
However I don't think it's acceptable to (& these are all things I've seen on MN):

  • refer to someone trans as 'it'
  • compare surgery or hormones to self-harm or FGM
  • claim that allowing a child to change their name or pronouns is child abuse
  • obsess about strangers' genitals and how much surgery they've had
  • say transmasculine people have betrayed their gender or sexual orientation
  • assume transwomen commit sexual assault or domestic violence
  • say that trans people are sexist, old-fashioned and lack the ability to be gender critical
  • make generalisations about how trans people look/talk/dress (they're a varied group and I bet you know plenty you didn't realise were trans!)
  • use terms like "weird", "special snowflake", "attention-seeking" just because someone has come out as trans
I certainly don't believe in silencing women's voices but I'm not sure everyone who makes these comments realises that the way it makes me feel (let alone how it makes trans people feel) is the same angry/sad/tired feeling you get when you hear yet another sexist or racist comment online. I really don't want to stifle debate but if anything makes me feel tempted to leave MN it's that.
maxxytoe · 01/11/2015 09:16

I am fed up to the back teeth about hearing about it.
Wearing a dress, applying makeup and having a manicure is not the be all and end all of being a woman,
I find a lot of trans 'women' see being a woman from a male point of view.
and I'm sick of women's issues, women's safety and women's voices being put to the back of the queue AGAIN in favour of a bunch of autogynephiles feelings

Sparklingbrook · 01/11/2015 09:17

Where is the OP?

BertieBotts · 01/11/2015 09:18

It is a straw man (should I say straw person, lest the bundle of straws identifies as female and is offended?) argument to deliberately misconstrue gender critical viewpoints as being anti transperson. Being critical of a movement does not imply disgust or hatred of those people who are involved in such a movement.

Gender critical doesn't mean everyone should be androgynous and dress only in beige, yellow and green so as to avoid any gender signifiers.

Gender critical doesn't mean everyone must adhere to the gender role which matches their genitals.

Gender critical believes that a spectrum is not so far from a binary, after all, it still has two ends. It is still harmful, it doesn't blur anything, it reinforces it.

Can we stop fighting? We all want the same thing. A world free of gender based expectations.

We do need to still talk of men and women. We can't erase that when sexism is still so rife. But this refers to biology, not identity. It is incredibly privileged to believe that sexism is so outdated or minor that we can erase discussion of it in this way. That is true of ALL of us in the West, in rich, developed countries where we have legislation to protect women and girls. (Which, by the way, would be meaningless if we are no longer allowed to talk about women and girls)

Do baby girls left to die of exposure have cis privilege? Do six year olds being subjected to FGM without anaesthetic have cis privilege? Does a woman suffering life-threatening complications of childbirth due to historic FGM have cis privilege? Female refugees fleeing their home country currently being attacked and raped - including children, by the way, - with alarming regularity in refugee camps and by (some) of the MALE soldiers who are supposed to be helping them, do they have cis privilege? How about girls who are married at nine years old, or denied education, given HIV deliberately because somebody believes sex with a virgin is a cure, or to have their breasts painfully ironed flat because their mothers are afraid that if their breast tissue develops, they might get raped or be a target for early marriage and pregnancy and hence not be able to continue their education? Privilege? Because their life would be so much more difficult if they were male inside? Get real. As if they have the brain space to pontify over gender when at risk of disease or rape or ambition-ending pregnancy or repeated rape or injury or death.

itsmine · 01/11/2015 09:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

howtorebuild · 01/11/2015 09:20

If there are autogynephiles involved, surely Women are suffering the fall out of narcissistic rage?

PurpleDaisies · 01/11/2015 09:21

'use terms like "weird", "special snowflake", "attention-seeking"

itsmine those comments were made about Jack Monroe on the very long thread about them coming out as transgender.

SlaggyIsland · 01/11/2015 09:23

Vashta, to answer your points:

-I haven't seen anyone refer to someone trans as "it" and I can't imagine most people wouldn't pull them up on it or report it.

  • Surgery and taking hormones are life-altering and have huge health implications. If someone undergoes this and later changes their minds, as does happen, they've done some pretty irreversible things to themselves.
-Strangers genitals are relevant when they want to enter the space of the opposite biological gender, such as was discussed around woman's prisons. -I haven't seen anyone say that. -This one you've twisted. All that's been assumed is that transwomen, in common with other men, have the potential to commit sexual assault or violence against women. No-one has implied that transwomen are more likely to do this than the population average.
  • I haven't seen any such generalising. There has been discussion around what female gender roles involve, and a discomfort and seeing them enforced by people adopting them when many feminists would rather move away from gender roles instead.
  • Not seen "weird", "special snowflake" has been used to refer to transwomen who are insisting upon a right that directly negatively impacts on women's rights. It's not a term used to describe transwomen as a matter of course.
CactusAnnie · 01/11/2015 09:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.