Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

WIBU to ask MNers who think Trans Women are 'Chicks With Dicks' to ...

847 replies

KKCupCakes · 31/10/2015 21:49

Take a look at this article about supporting families of Transgender people by the Gires.org.uk Website to see why that view is so utterly incorrect and harmful?
www.gires.org.uk/assets/supporting-families.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
QueenLaBeefah · 31/10/2015 22:59

It probably is pretty shite being transgender tbh.

Doesn't explain why women have to sacrifice our hard won rights to accommodate them.

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 31/10/2015 23:01

Chicks with dicks sounds more like a phrase the trans activists on Twitter who go on about their "lady sticks" would use tbh.

ElleAndAitch · 31/10/2015 23:02

I'm bored to death of the whole debate around what constitutes a woman, quite frankly. I can see it's a huge issue for some people who have lived a tortured existence for their life time, but all this campaigning to redefine what it means to be a woman just grips my shit.

Haven't there always been people who didn't feel they fit into the gender stereotypes laid down by society? Did it always require surgery and the obliteration of the experiences of women whose biology matched their identity from birth?

Just because society advances it doesn't mean we have to reconfigure every single facet of humanity and biology.

Grr.

Garlick · 31/10/2015 23:04

I love Mumsnet sometimes :)

What everyone else said, OP.

Repeating a verifiable falsehood doesn't make it true.

Somebody should tell the government that.

jorahmormont · 31/10/2015 23:05

A close friend is FTM grimble, and I have several MTF acquaintances. The MTF acquaintances are very 'in your face' about it and are very much "I AM a woman, I FEEL WHAT WOMEN FEEL" (do you really? Hmm ) but are actually quite vocally homophobic, have no desire to take hormones or lose their penis, and very against gender-critical people, whereas my FTM friend takes part in campaigns for LGBT+ rights (he was LGBT officer at university), is gender-critical himself, is mid-transition with hormones etc, and is very willing to explain his feelings on it to anyone who asks, but for the most part hardly speaks about it and many people aren't aware.

I call him "he" without having to even think twice about it and it's weird to think I ever knew him as "she", whereas with the MTF acquaintances who are so loud and in-your-face about it, I find myself forgetting and calling them "he... oh, wait, I mean she".

I feel like if they truly wanted to live as women, they'd refer to themselves as women, like my FTM friend refers to herself as a man and not a transman. Insisting that they are transwomen, thus giving themselves a layer of immunity to any criticism in "stop being so transphobic", highlights the fact that even they don't actually seem to see themselves as women - but they still want to be in women's spaces and to silence discussion about women's issues as 'transphobic'.

Tapirs · 31/10/2015 23:06

A thing can be repeated and repeated and repeated. Doesn't make it true.

MaryMcGregor · 31/10/2015 23:10

I don't get the whole thing either. It seems to me that there is tiny subset of humanity, some of whom reject the male gender norm and think they will happier wearing dresses and heels as that is woman stuff, and a smaller subset even that want to alter their bodies surgically and hormonally to become female. I have no issue with any of this stuff until they start dictating to born women about shit, talking of CIS and starting no-platforming feminists and insisting that people with penises should be in a women's prison because they identify as female.

NoodleEatingPoodle · 31/10/2015 23:12

  1. YABVU
  1. I have never, and would never, refer to anyone as "chicks with dicks", but I do know the difference between men and women, and that surgery, hormones and clothing do not turn one into the other.
  1. I have never seen anyone else on MN use the phrase "chicks with dicks" (maybe they have and I've missed it), and I think your use of the phrase is intended to conflate gender critical feminism with cruelty / bigotry, and that is a very unfair representation of the perspective of the many many people who have been posting on the numerous threads from a gender critical perspective.
  1. I read your link, and it confirmed for me that transgenderism and in particular transgender activism is deeply rooted in anti-feminist stereotypes and expectations about the appropriate "roles" of men and women in society, and is therefore damaging to equality for women and girls.

From your link (bold are quotes, italics are why I think it's pure shit):

Male and female characteristics depend on two factors: sex and gender.
‘Sex’ describes our physical structure, including external appearance, internal organs and brain, which all differ between males and females.

Human brains have all sorts of differences unique to individuals, but there is no difference between male and female brains that would allow a scientist to look at a human cadaver brain and tell you what sex the person was. The organs and physical characteristics that do differ between men and women - and the experiences which are directly linked to them, like menstruation, prostate cancer, childbirth - are the differences between men and women and what defines a person as one or the other.

There are two different aspects to gender: ‘gender identity’ describes the inner sense of knowing that we are boys or girls, and later men or women; ‘gender role’ describes how we behave in society.

Many, many people - myself included - woudl say that they don't have an internal 'gender identity', other than what they know of their sex because of their biology, or what they experience socially because of the stupid, sexist, dangerous, oppressive 'gender role' that this article seems to hold up as an acceptable and inevitable reality.

Can you really not see why the phrase "'gender role' describes how we behave in society." is VERY FUCKING PROBLEMATIC to anyone interested in feminism, freedom and equality?!

Even though we now live in a more equal society, boys and girls are still expected to dress differently from each other and, possibly, enjoy different kinds of games. Each is expected to have rather different interests and different groups of friends.

Oh, God. Really? I don't know where to start. Is 'more equal' good enough, or shall we maybe consider whether all children, whether boys or girls, should feel free to wear, play, be interested in, and be friends with whatever / whomever they like?! Do you actually want to live in a society where boys and girls are expected to have 'rather different interests' (science for boys, hairdressing for girls), and if they don't conform to that, then you'd have them told they might need to mutilate their bodies in order to make them into an approximation of the kind of body that matches their 'expected gender role'?

However, people vary greatly and it should not be surprising that, occasionally, a few individuals experience a mismatch. The way they are expected to behave may be quite different from the way they actually want to behave.

Yes, and rather than saying it's WRONG that people should be expected to behave in one way or the other based on their reproductive organs, and that their 'different' interests and behaviour are JUST FINE regardless of their sex, the transgender movement would have us all send the message that if your interests don't match society's sexist expectations for a boy / a girl, then you're not a real boy or girl at all, and you have a condition that needs treatment so that you can better conform to the sexist expectations of our sexist culture.

Research studies indicate that a small part of the baby’s brain develops in opposition to the sex of the rest of its body. This predisposes the baby to a future mismatch between gender identity and sex.

I'm saying bullshit. What research studies? Why isn't that footnoted with a source? Please link to the study on that small part of the baby's brain. Is it that when the small part of the baby's brain is supposed to form receptors for the colour pink and shiny pairs of shoes, it instead develops racecar-and-dinosaur receptors? Hmm

As the individual grows through childhood, adolescence and on into adulthood, the discomfort may become extreme. Even so, many will continue to strive to live and behave according to the gender role that society expects of them.

However, for some, the stress of their situation may become so intolerable that medical help is sought to enable the individual concerned to undergo ‘transition’, that is, to live according to the opposite gender role, and to have treatment, usually including hormone medication and surgery, to bring the body more closely in line with the underlying gender identity.

This is awful and must be painful and is very wrong. Because gender roles are damaging and limiting and oppressive, and are stupid made up bullshit anyway, which should be challenged at every turn until they are abolished. The answer is not to say that 'gender roles' are correct and immutable.

Think of it this way: there's a girl who loves mechanics, but her societal 'gender role' says that she should be more interested in fashion. She finds this uncomfortable and hard to deal with. Gender critical feminism says that the problem is that society shouldn't stereotype people's aptitudes and interests according to their sex. Transgenderism says that the problem is the girl shouldn't have been born with a vagina.

Now which one of those perspectives sounds progressive and rooted in common sense and equality? And which one sounds like disordered thinking at best, and a regressive anti-feminist plot at worst?

LovelyFriend · 31/10/2015 23:14

I really don't think I could describe what it feels like to be a woman.
To be a person, an adult human sure, to be a woman (beyond biology - periods, PMT, having breasts etc) I couldn't describe how I feel at all.

So someone saying that they "feel like a woman" puzzles me.

Bettercallsaul1 · 31/10/2015 23:14

I think there is a huge difference between trans men who are basically trapped in the wrong body and can have no peace until their outward appearance matches their inner identity and individuals like Tara Hudson who appear to be cynically exploiting a form of dual sexuality for the sake of novelty in the sex market. The first category should be fully supported and helped to have the surgery that will transform their lives and happiness. The tiny minority like Hudson (who appears in no hurry to lose her male parts as they give her added novelty value as a sex worker) are a totally different matter and really only become an object of public interest and debate when they do something which results in a choice having to be made based on their sex ie whether to be placed in a male or female prison.

RickRoll · 31/10/2015 23:16

According to Google, there were zero (0, nil, none) uses of the phrase 'chicks with dicks' on mumsnet, out of millions of posts on here.

Therefore, YABVU

MrsTerryPratchett · 31/10/2015 23:18

Rick that can't be right because it's been used several time son this thread. Grin

EmpressKnowsWhereHerTowelIs · 31/10/2015 23:18

Brilliant, brilliant post Noodle. I didn't click on the link but from what you've written it sounds like total sexist bollocks.

MrsTerryPratchett · 31/10/2015 23:21

I advanced searched it and there were 126 posts with that reference. I'm not going through them all but a number seemed to be in reference to Cheryl Cole saying it, some were ' ' and talking about someone else.

I agree with those who say that I would never say it for about 15 reasons. Primarily, 'chicks' is sexist, 'chicks with dicks' is the exact opposite of what I believe, and it's fucking stupid.

LovelyFriend · 31/10/2015 23:21

I've seen the myth of the "ladybrain" talked about as if it were a fact on a lot of Trans discussions/articles etc lately. A MTW Trans person told me this week that she has a "female" brain.

Are people really wondering why so many women are refusing to embrace this really special brand of misogyny, gift wrapped in all the "womanly" trappings of sparkly dresses, high heels, and immaculate nails.

DawnOfTheDoggers · 31/10/2015 23:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LunchpackOfNotreDame · 31/10/2015 23:32

I don't know if it's just me who has observed this or if others have

Trans m2f who transition late in life seem to be the ones who are most psychologically traumatised by the process and by the reality not matching up to the dream or fetish.

The trans folk in their 20's and 30s fall into two categories, gobshites and those who want to get on with a normal life. I fully support the latter, but have no time for the former drama llamas.

M2f trans folk is a massive issue for women and feminism and being right on and trying to smother discussion by screaming 'transphobic' at people will not make the issue go away

Garlick · 31/10/2015 23:33

Standing applause, Noodle.

howtorebuild · 31/10/2015 23:40

Apparently there are groups tweeting mn threads.

LunchpackOfNotreDame · 31/10/2015 23:40
slugseatlettuce · 31/10/2015 23:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

UselessArticle · 31/10/2015 23:45

It's bloody boring all this trans talk. Wish it would just all get moved into a sub topic so I could ignore it.

Done to death.

Jaxsbum · 31/10/2015 23:47

so true. it is a yawn fest and i for the life of me can't see why it is such an issue on mumsnet
all this shite about cis (WTF) and ..........

(sorry was yawing) needs tobe hidden in its own topic

abbieanders · 31/10/2015 23:49

Apparently there are groups tweeting mn threads.

Of course there are. How unacceptable that women are speaking frankly from our own point of view.

It seems curious to me that so many penised women claim they feel like women - except on this subject. Who'd have thunk it?

Roseformeplease · 31/10/2015 23:50

My Mum had an ex-boyfriend who, years later, started MTF. She rang my Mum to suggest shopping and a make up spree.

My Mum declined. She hates clothes shopping and only wears lipstick. Offered lunch instead. Was told she was transphobic. So, she had to change into a giggly make-up smeared parody of her female self to accommodate the needs of her ex?