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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To find the terms Cool Wives and Handmaidens...

296 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/10/2015 20:59

...deeply offensive?

I was on a thread today where these phrases were used. I challenged them as IMO they are as bad as the word "slut". Disgusting names that are used exclusively to judge women and put them down.

I am a feminist and none of the feminists I know in RL tolerate the labelling of women in negative terms. However the response I received was so surprising that I thought I would ask: AIBU to find the terms "Cool Wives/Girls" and "Handmaidens" demeaning, dismissive, misogynistic insults?

OP posts:
Garrick · 21/10/2015 14:52

These terms are useful for women in dodgy relationships. I also like the terminology used for types of abusive men (Mr Right etc) because they help women in need of guidance to understand it's not their fault.

Completely agree, Popalot.

MrsK - Is it similar to ladette or geezer bird? - Yeah. I used to get called an honorary bloke. It was a compliment. Even at the time, I felt conflicted about it; the clear implication being that men are so much better, a woman gains advantage by being somewhat like them!

You can either go with that or fight it. What you can't justifiably do is tell other people not to comment on it.

Original poster
DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2015 14:55

This is not a TAAT. Indeed I started this thread because I wanted to discuss the use of these terms and did not wish to derail Bert's thread.

Bert, I do not think I misrepresented you or myself on this thread, and I will apologise if you demonstrate that I have. Nor do I agree that I have behaved in a thoroughly shabby and unpleasant way.Confused Perhaps you could explain what I have done.

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 14:56

"What we should be doing as feminists is teaching our dds and ourselves what is a healthy, happy relationship and what is not. And that if you don't like how someone behaves, you can just leave and be single until you meet someone who is more suited to you or decide to stay single."

Sorry but this sort of comment bothers me. Why should we specifically be teaching our daughters what a healthy, happy relationship is? I want my sons to know the same thing.

bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 15:02

"the clear implication being that men are so much better, a woman gains advantage by being somewhat like them! "

See, I wouldn't take it as them thinking they were better just that they maybe felt more comfortable around you.

Garrick · 21/10/2015 15:21

they maybe felt more comfortable around you - yes, because their standards are dominant.

bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 15:51

No, because they feel that they have to act differently around some women. (often trying to show off!)

RainbowFlutterby · 21/10/2015 15:55

Tbf one of my friends is a bloke and is often referred to as an "honorary girl".

Yes, we call ourselves girls, our choice, get over it Grin

bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 15:58

We call ourselves 'girls' too Rainbow. And refer to our male friends as 'the boys' Shock So no judgement from me! Grin

ThursdayLastWeek · 21/10/2015 16:00

What we should be doing as feminists is teaching our dds and ourselves what is a healthy, happy relationship and what is not. And that if you don't like how someone behaves, you can just leave and be single until you meet someone who is more suited to you or decide to stay single.

Sorry but this sort of comment bothers me. Why should we specifically be teaching our daughters what a healthy, happy relationship is? I want my sons to know the same thing.

I quite agree bumbly and intended to post something similar.
This is a standard I will be bringing my son up with.

TheIncomparableDejahThoris · 21/10/2015 16:12

If it's a genuine question, and not a disingenuous one, perhaps the poster had the differing rates of domestic violence in mind. Men suffer violence within relationships (from female and male partners) but more women than men seem to be murdered by partners each year.

MrsKoala · 21/10/2015 16:37

What bothers me is not the implication they are better, more that certain pursuits were male and i was encroaching on that with their permission. Things like drinking pints of Guinness, eating kebabs and having lots of casual sex was somehow male. They were just things i enjoyed. How come they think the best things are theirs?

i also was quite aware that being 19 and pretty 'fit' made this 'okay'. I doubt i would have been quite so welcomed if i had been considered unattractive. I doubt dh would have the envy of his friends if i behaved the same now.

i always hated loaded and fhm and (pre internet) porn tho. Which was considered very uncool of me.

madwomanbackintheattic · 21/10/2015 17:09

Great post mrsk. Don't let bumbly try and twist your experience.
I can quite safely say that my experience matches yours and while I was young fit, beer drinking and partying, I received many 'one of the boys' 'compliments'. In reverse, the sole male carer in my baby and toddler group made no effort to become 'one of the girls' and there were many women that fluttered around him, making his tea, offering biscuits and generally applauding him for being a sahp and 'different'.

Women who enjoy behaviors that have been socially defined as 'masculine' are congratulated on their ability to fit in (by the men). Men who enjoy behaviours that have been socially defined as feminine are called gay and derided. And occasionally get the shit beaten out of them.

But no hierarchy of gendered behaviours to be seen here. No sirree Bob.

If I like to drink beer, I don't need to be congratulated on having successfully adopted a male pursuit. I'm just a woman that likes to drink beer.

If I hate drinking beer, but I do it anyway because my partner likes it and I get male approbation, more fool me, really, and I need a straight talking feminist to tell me that I have the right to do what the hell I want, and that male approbation ain't all that.

kali110 · 21/10/2015 17:10

I find the 'coolgirl' line used to shut down an arguement. It annoys me as it insinuates i do not know my own mind.
On threads where an op is upset about something i' never say they should put up etc i've said if they don't like porn that is fine, that's their opinion, i have no problem because etc and give my view or my dp has female friends and i have male friends...I've never told anyone to put up and shut up or attacked someone, however i have been atracked( including on other forums) and called a cool gf for not having a problem.
I have been told im just trying to keep my partner, doing it for him, i hate it really.
I am no doormat and not in an abusive relationship. I simply have different views, however it seems acceptable to use these to shoot me down for not agreeing.

Ubik1 · 21/10/2015 17:14

Geezer bird was an abusive term when I was at school. It meant "not feminine enough.."

Ubik1 · 21/10/2015 17:18

Um startrek1 I was quoting from Gone Girl Confused

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 21/10/2015 17:21

madwoman I can see what you mean but the straight talking feminist doesn't necessarily know if a woman is drinking beer because

  1. she likes beer
  2. she wants to impress men

My dad has been called an honorary girl for many years, but not in a derisory way. If anything he took it as a compliment he is a pretty enlightened man though, I'll admit this may not be a common experience

BreakingDad77 · 21/10/2015 17:22

I admit to using handmaiden on MN but I cant think of any other name for the type of woman that finds Dapper Laughs rape gags hilarious, thinks ched evans got set up, rape is your fault, thinks women should be massively thankful for any appreciative comments on their shagability etc.

MephistophelesApprentice · 21/10/2015 17:29

BreakingDad77

'Wrong' might be sufficient. Ad hominem is evidence of an inability to articulate a genuine argument, which should be easy with the example given.

ilovesooty · 21/10/2015 17:47

I think wrong would do me too for opinions like that.

bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 17:50

"Great post mrsk. Don't let bumbly try and twist your experience."

Eh? Where have I tried to do that. I disagreed with Garrick's idea that there was a 'clear implication' that men were better from the idea that she was called an honarary bloke. It can mean different things to different people and I wouldn't have taken that from it.

psychotropic · 21/10/2015 17:53

It still doesn't seem helpful in any way to call people names. You can just disagree and say why (eg: the high standard of proof required for a rape conviction makes a 'set up' unlikely) while conceding that you see the appeal of a world view where sexual violence is less widespread than it actually is?

madwomanbackintheattic · 21/10/2015 18:15

Oh, I get that, horrid. But by straight-talking feminist I don't mean someone yelling 'handmaiden'. I mean someone validating that if I like drinking beer, great. If I don't, then I don't have to, and my choice not to is equally valid. It doesn't have to be a criticism, just an empowerment, which is what straight talking feminists should do best. And the reminder that drinking beer is not a masculine preserve. And that not shaving your legs doesn't make you a man.

Handmaiden to me is not really a term of abuse, it's a descriptor of someone who is wittingly or unwittingly upholding the patriarchal system. And sometimes, considering whether you are being a bit of a handmaiden yourself is a good thing. Self knowledge. Grin

Better to encourage and validate self-knowledge than tell people what they think though, for sure. Straight talking doesn't equate to yelling abuse, although I can see that when people are promoting specific behaviours instead of encouraging individual reflection as to their own choices, it can be frustrating. Unthinking dogma is frustrating whatever the subject. Red rag to a bull when it is unthinking patriarchal dogma to someone who has spent time considering the subject and rejected it as damaging.

Helmetbymidnight · 21/10/2015 18:50

It's not nice calling people names- which is why I am surprised that the name calling on this thread: 'sound like they've got a stick up their arse' 'arse licked' 'dick' etc hasn't been robustly attacked then too.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 21/10/2015 19:05

someone validating that if I like drinking beer, great. If I don't, then I don't have to, and my choice not to is equally valid. It doesn't have to be a criticism, just an empowerment, which is what straight talking feminists should do best. And the reminder that drinking beer is not a masculine preserve. And that not shaving your legs doesn't make you a man

Well you can do all of that without once calling someone a handmaiden.

uglyswan · 21/10/2015 20:17

Shit, late to this and I'd love to join in, but I've read about 3 different definitions of 'cool girl' on this thread and don't want to get it wrong? As far as I can tell, a 'cool girl' is someone who

a) enjoys traditionally 'masculine' activities (because those are 'cool' by dint of being 'masculine' and 'cool' is a term only men have the power to confer on anyone else?)

b) trusts her male partner to have female friends without wondering whether he just wants to fuck them

c) is sex-positive, porn-positive (yes, apparently that's a thing now too), believes that prostitution is just 'sex between two consenting adults', but doesn't believe that men should be asked to do housework or childcare

or d) is bisexual (I didn't get that one to be honest).

So if someone would like to come back and tell me which one we're arguing about exactly, I'd be really grateful. Smile