To find the terms Cool Wives and Handmaidens...

[DioneTheDiabolist]

...deeply offensive?

I was on a thread today where these phrases were used. I challenged them as IMO they are as bad as the word "slut". Disgusting names that are used exclusively to judge women and put them down.

I am a feminist and none of the feminists I know in RL tolerate the labelling of women in negative terms. However the response I received was so surprising that I thought I would ask: AIBU to find the terms "Cool Wives/Girls" and "Handmaidens" demeaning, dismissive, misogynistic insults?

I think its more that The consensus is that name-calling and generalising behaviour by feminists isn't going to change anything.

Name calling and generalising behaviour is clearly fine though - as it is through-out this thread and others.

OK. I give up. Fair enough. You win. Not sure what you win or why

No one is saying women never consciously or unconsciously collude with the patriarchy. Or that you shouldn't challenge that.
I personally would prefer it if you stopped calling women "cool girls" and "handmaidens"

Yes true "wrong" is the better term, but it doesn't get over the nature of wrongness, like say calling Britain First 'wrong'.

No, but neither does an insult that attacks the individual rather than criticising their actions.

Of course we should criticise the actions and beliefs that negatively impact our society. What we shouldn't do is use a lazy shorthand that essentially says: "you're not worth talking to like an adult, have a label instead and be appropriately ashamed".

If instead we tell people: "Have you considered the possibility that your beliefs may be wrong?" we may still end with people taking offence and not listening to the argument. If we just insult them, they will take offence and reject the argument regardless of it's potential validity. We'll have denied them the respect as an individual we offer ourselves - that we have agency and have arrived at our viewpoints through self awareness and debate - and in doing so denied both themselves and ourselves the opportunity to learn.

I think that women are being offended by unpleasant, gender specific insults that blame them for misogyny and oppression.

I believe this to be the most accurate summary.

"I personally would prefer it if you stopped calling women "cool girls" and "handmaidens""

I did. Once. Indirectly. In inverted commas. As shorthand. Coupled with "some". Related to some specific behaviours. As part of a question.

And nobody has been remotely prepared to engage with anything else I've said since.

"And nobody has been remotely prepared to engage with anything else I've said since."

Rubbish. You had an entire thread where people engaged with you and discussed your OP despite your use of those terms.

95% of posters in here avoid the feminism boards like the plague. Those who frequent them steadfastly and consistently refuse to engage in any discussion as to why that is that doesn't blame the 95%.

It's the most self defeating part of the boards, it's done more to put me off self identifying as a feminist than anything else.

The terms in question are patronising more than offensive to me. Luckily their usage generally exposes the poster as someone whose opinion of me is likely to matter very, very little to me :)

I don't know what the percentage is Dontyouopenthattrapdoor, but I agree an awful lot of posters avoid the feminism topics like the plague.

bumbly i think bertrand means their post on calling out patriarchal collusion etc?

I think she's referring to how she used it in her OP on her other thread which ran for several pages.

I have learnt a lot from the feminism boards TBH, people should give it time and lurk.

I can see where people get turned off by them as it can be a shock to realise how unlevel the playing field is and how you can be complicit.

I agree Maryz, some of the posters are great.

But often you'll find them in other topics and can still learn from them, without having to go to the FWR topic.

BreakingDad many people have given it time and lurked, before coming to the conclusion that they would rather hide/avoid it.

Don't give up Bertrand. I think this discussion has probably run its course but I still believe that women have a right to point out when other women collude with the patriarchy. That isn't women blaming.

Still, next time a lot of the posters here witness a thread where some poor woman who is upset about her husband watching porn/doing fuck all/being aggressive in some way gets told to remove the stick from her arse and chill out I hope they remember this thread.

I acknowledge that name calling won't win hearts and minds but I object to people using a few limited incidences of the use of these labels to deny that women ever do the patriarchys bidding. Because they sometimes do.

The FWR board would be better if its regulars didn't feed the trolls but reported and ignored them. You could say this about most of MN though.

I think for each of us what we consider 'reasonable' compromise to be in a relationship is different and some people slip into the 'supporting the patriarchy' definitions of others because they have made a conscious decision to remain in that relationship ( accept some things they are not entirely happy with). I know both dh and have made massive compromises to be together which would defo be considered handmaiden-ish. I don't care tho because i decided this consciously, i would never advise others to do the same without considering all the pros and cons tho. So in my case the term would be lacking in understanding. I wouldn't find it offensive tho. Just reductive (not sure if that's the right word - I'm very tired!)

So the consensus on this thread is that women never, either consciously or unconsciously, collude with the patriarchy.

No. I have no idea how anyone could read this thread and come to that conclusion Bert.

Breaking, I too have learnt a lot from the feminism board. I read it but like most other members here rarely post for the reasons Maryz said and because there can be a tendency to misrepresent arguments in the same way that Bert has misrepresented this thread with her "the consensus of this thread....." post.

It is no shock to me how unlevel the playing field is. I have known it all my life and I work hard to raise awareness and change this, as all the feminists I know in RL do.

What I know is that name calling and shaming women doesn't change anything. It only benefits the patriarchy having feminists call other women names and potentially alienate them from feminism altogether.

I know both dh and have made massive compromises to be together to me would in no way ever be seen as handmaiden-ish, your working together.

Its where there is no compromise and people don't realise the answers they are advising are reinforcing that position.

Agreed mary!

Perhaps on porn threads for example members could also remember that not all women watch it to keep their partner or because they've been taught to put up with it...

wow, Bertrand you are making yourself look ridiculous. You're not the boss of feminism. People here are making the effort to genuinely engage in the question of how to deal with a difficult issue. You are just acting the victim and arguing in bad faith because you are defensive. If you really cared like you pretend to, you'd be engaging in good faith. But I've pretty much realized that for most Perfect Online Feminists, they have no real interest in fighting patriarchy. What they want is to be the big fish in a small pond of their own crazy.

Let's be real, the FWR boards (and to a certain extent the relationships board) are full of smug self righteous ideologues who celebrate anyone whose rigid small mindedness fits with their own and denigrate anyone who deviates from their "truth".

"So the consensus on this thread is that women never, either consciously or unconsciously, collude with the patriarchy.

No. I have no idea how anyone could read this thread and come to that conclusion Bert.shock"

Not sure how you could c and p my post and come to that conclusion either. Oh, wait. Yes I can. You deleted the second word, which was "is", and the question mark at the end. Easy when you know how.

Even in its entirety Bertrand, it does make you come across as disingenuous.

"So is the consensus of this thread that women never, either consciously or unconsciously, collude with the patriarchy? Or if they do, they should not be called out on it?"

To answer your question, no that is not the consensus of this thread, but I expect you absolutely know that if you've been following it.

Yes, it was so nice of Dione to clarify things for me. Without her I mightn't have understood my own motives. All it took was the deletion of 3 characters and it was so much clearer.

Even clearer without the rest of the post!