To find the terms Cool Wives and Handmaidens...

[DioneTheDiabolist]

...deeply offensive?

I was on a thread today where these phrases were used. I challenged them as IMO they are as bad as the word "slut". Disgusting names that are used exclusively to judge women and put them down.

I am a feminist and none of the feminists I know in RL tolerate the labelling of women in negative terms. However the response I received was so surprising that I thought I would ask: AIBU to find the terms "Cool Wives/Girls" and "Handmaidens" demeaning, dismissive, misogynistic insults?

This:

"Some MNers are assuming things, telling us how to think and feel, making assumptions and passing judgement because we don't exactly fit into their neat little box."

and this:

"In reality, it's feminists being judgemental about the behaviours of other women in order to exert the same social control that those who call women sluts are attempting. The clue is how it is still about "behaving like men" - demonstrating the importance of reinforcing the gender distinction by linking behaviours of which feminists disapprove to their constructed "toxic masculinity." "

"The problem is that some women ARE subjugating their own desires and needs and really don't need other women piling in and telling them to be cool, because, you know, they are."

You don't empower women to express their own desires by ripping on those who actually do so.

'handmaiden' is a new one on me in this kind of context.

YANBU.

The message I'm getting here is that if a poster feels uncomfortable about something, - whether its porn, housework, Ow - and everyone else tells her they don't have a problem with those things, she should lighten up, take the stick out of her arse, whatever, then its best not to get involved otherwise you become the baddy.

Well I'm not a MN feminist. This is the first time I have started to get involved in feminist threads and frankly I'm starting to regret it.

helmet IMO that kind of goes both ways. I've seen people post along the lines of "I'm fine with porn so you should be too, quit complaining" but also a poster who is ok with porn being told "you aren't really ok with it, you just do it to keep him happy" etc. There's fault on both sides from threads I've been on. And on both sides it feels to me that they just can't cope with people having different opinions to them and they feel threatened by it.

Helmet, I'm not sure why you're getting that message. I thought plenty of people had made it clear that they just don't think name-calling is the best way to intervene it make their point.

Wasabi, some people genuinely can't see why it's off-putting.

And actually in response to the OPs question YANBU to be offended by the terms. You can be offended by whatever you like. YABU if you expect never to see these terms again in a debate because of your delicate sensibilities.

That's fair enough odd socks, yes.

at wasabi

So whenever someone finds something offensive it's because of their "delicate sensibilities"?

Kind of blows a lot of MNFeminism out of the water really!

And on both sides it feels to me that they just can't cope with people having different opinions to them and they feel threatened by it.

This.

The terms "cool wife" and "handmaiden" aren't applied to women who "act like men".

They are applied to women who excuse men for bad behaviour, on the basis that they are men.

As mentioned above, "female chauvinist pig" has also been used to describe such women.

I can't believe that people really believe these terms are in any way as insulting as "slut".

I think 'cool girl' gained traction, regardless of its origin, because lots of people did identify with it - either from their own past behaviour or observing it in others. I know I did. Personally I think it's a useful shorthand and, if the first step in solving a problem is naming it, then 'cool girl' is as good a phrase as any to prompt ourselves to ask whether our feelings and desires are genuinely our own or shaped by others. I think that's a key step for feminism, so it's not surprising that people are keen to prompt others as well as themselves.

It's difficult to interpret from a forum post whether people's behaviour, beliefs and preferences are genuine or not, so I'd be reluctant to call 'cool wife' on any one here. I don't think it's offensive as such, but we should be guarded in our use of it. I think using it for people who are telling other people that they should think and feel in certain ways because it's more convenient for their menfolk shouldn't be surprised if someone calls them 'cool'.

'Handmaiden' implies someone who is actively facilitating misogyny - a much more offensive term. I first heard it used in relation to the wife of he head of Fathers4Justice who actively defends him online. And I think that was reasonable. I wouldn't ever use it against another MNer, but I might use it to describe someone in the public eye.

And I think that discussing porn is problematic in every context. There is a wide variety of content that comes under the heading 'porn'. And MNers and their partners will view it in varying ways - some harmless and some very much not so.

The problem is that these terms aren't just being applied to women who excuse men's bad behaviour. They're bandied around if someone is pissed off at another person's point of view. They're used in the heat of the moment to cut someone down to size.

I've seen 'cool wife' being used to describe women on MN who are supportive of pretty innocuous stuff. Husbands going on stag weekends for example.

The terms may be applied to those women excusing mens behaviour, but the basis of the insult is in judgement of the behaviour of the one being insulted.

Name calling just isn't nice! It's fine to identify yourself as such.

The frequent comments about being "cool" and references to handmaidens etc are to me a good enough reason not to venture much into Relationships.

Bertrand, I hadn't realised this was a TAAT. What an unpleasant thing to do, Dione.

Anyway - 'handmaiden of the patriarchy' has been a well-used term in feminist discussion since the 70s, and probably before.

'Cool girl' has meant pretty much the same thing since the 60s. Whether you'd consider it a compliment or not would depend very much on your values; I've certainly been through phases of thinking my cool-girl-ness was the key to success. I recognise that plenty of women are going through that now; the label isn't really going to upset them. But I can use it to signal to an unhappy woman that she doesn't have to take instruction from the 'cool wives'.

"The message I'm getting here is that if a poster feels uncomfortable about something, - whether its porn, housework, Ow - and everyone else tells her they don't have a problem with those things, she should lighten up, take the stick out of her arse, whatever, then its best not to get involved otherwise you become the baddy."

You need to have another read. Many of us are saying that we don't want to be called sneery names just because a minority of loud MNers think their way is the only way. I respect your discomfort, I'd like to be respected back if I (politely, of course!) say this would not make me feel the same way.

I am on another female orientated forum and there is a strong feminist theme. I have never been verbally attacked there for daring to have a slightly different opinion in the same way I have on here. I have been debated with and strongly disagreed with but no sneery labels plonked on me.

Yeah, no more sneery terms would be nice and no more sneery: 'Ffs what's the matter with you- porn is great, my dh has loads of female friends, you sound insecure to me," etc etc

No more 'arse-licked posters'

(Nb I don't know what this means but it sounds sneery)

I read gone girl and the cool girl passage really rang some home truths with me about a relationship I had when I was younger. It's possibly a generational thing? There will be young women who are in this kind of relationship, thinking they can't voice concerns about their partner because they'll be called a nag/controlling(uncool) so they'll go along with things that traditionally were always frowned upon but today aren't so much.

However, I don't think anyone has the right to call another woman a 'cool girl', it's something you have to recognise in yourself. And not all women in relationships like these are unhappy about men taking out other women, not telling them when they are coming home etc because the woman is doing the same so the relationship is balanced. It only applies to women who are unhappily taking shit when they don't want to be labelled 'uncool' or a nag.

What we should be doing as feminists is teaching our dds and ourselves what is a healthy, happy relationship and what is not. And that if you don't like how someone behaves, you can just leave and be single until you meet someone who is more suited to you or decide to stay single. This is about freeing women from being categorised according to their relationship with men. Hopefully at this point we won't need phrases like 'cool girl' to help women recognise why they are unhappy in a certain type of relationship.

These terms are useful for women in dodgy relationships. I also like the terminology used for types of abusive men (Mr Right etc) because they help women in need of guidance to understand it's not their fault.

Is it similar to ladette or geezer bird? These were used to describe woman like in the gone girl passage when i was younger (90s).

i dislike it because you are accusing someone of essentially lying. And if you think someone is lying about their opinions then discussion is pretty pointless. If anyone can say random shit to back up their point then what's the point. And I'm the queen btw so that's actually law.

its like how frustrating it is to be told you are clearly lying or being lied to by your dh if you say he doesn't watch porn. Because some people cannot comprehend anyone so different from themselves.