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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To find the terms Cool Wives and Handmaidens...

296 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/10/2015 20:59

...deeply offensive?

I was on a thread today where these phrases were used. I challenged them as IMO they are as bad as the word "slut". Disgusting names that are used exclusively to judge women and put them down.

I am a feminist and none of the feminists I know in RL tolerate the labelling of women in negative terms. However the response I received was so surprising that I thought I would ask: AIBU to find the terms "Cool Wives/Girls" and "Handmaidens" demeaning, dismissive, misogynistic insults?

OP posts:
Helmetbymidnight · 21/10/2015 20:21

Really, you read the thread and that's what you surmised?

Blimey.

uglyswan · 21/10/2015 20:31

Helmet, pretty much. But what's your take on it?

Helmetbymidnight · 21/10/2015 20:38

Cool girl is a way of describing someone who goes out of her way to please men, even though its at great cost to herself.

That's why it's regarded as an insult.

I don't know where you got a, b, c, or d from.

Ubik1 · 21/10/2015 20:39

The problem is that it doesn't mean fuckjng anything beyond a put down to help win the Internet

uglyswan · 21/10/2015 20:50

Helmet - I got them from reading the thread. Your version works too, though. Ubik - well perhaps, but that can be said of a wide variety of these internet discourse terms , e.g. derailing, mansplaining, notallmen, feminazi, grammar nazi, anything nazi, etc. None of them are terribly useful unless backed up by an actual argument. I don't find any of them "deeply offensive", though. As opposed to 'slut' or the charming 'arselicked' I hadn't encountered before reading this thread.

slugseatlettuce · 21/10/2015 20:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

uglyswan · 21/10/2015 21:04

Helmet - sorry, that wasn't meant to sound dismissive. But before reading this thread, I thought that your definition was the general consensus, with one small addition: "someone who goes out of her way to please men, even though its at great cost to herself - and other women. Which is I meant by point c. But a large number of posters have been arguing for the woman who "adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping" from the Gone Girl quote, so someone who enjoys stereotypically 'masculine' activities (a). And then there's the whole "dp has female friends" cool wives discussion (b). And so, yes, that is largely what I surmised from reading this thread.

Helmetbymidnight · 21/10/2015 21:12

Don't worry swan, I'm hard to offend ;)

Yes the lack of clarity/understanding renders it fairly useless.

derxa · 21/10/2015 21:16

I think a good way to live is to have self respect and make your own choices. I score highly on both those fronts. I wouldn't give a shiney shite if someone on here called me a handmaiden or a cool wife tbh. You're not the boss of me! I enjoy lots of 'masculine' activities e.g. watching football. drinking, driving.
More seriously if someone on here is heartbroken because their relationship is breaking down I don't see the point in making it worse by calling the person a handmaiden or cool girl. They need practical advice.

uglyswan · 21/10/2015 21:25

Well, perhaps I should have tried harder then, Helmet Grin. I admit, I was being flippant in my opening post because this thread smells strongly of "these silly feminists, especially MN feminists, with their silly bitchy terms and no arguments". Which is intensely irritating and I get flippant when irritable. But still, if we conflate "drinking beer" with "collaborating with the patriarchy", then that doesn't help the discussion much and I don't think feminism is to blame here. derxa - I'm not happy with namecalling either, but I'd have to do an advance search to check how the terms are actually being used and I'm too lazy having trouble tearing myself away from the spider thread.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 21/10/2015 21:30

Cool girl/wife is not about liking sport drinking beer having sex with lots of partners

It's is about the conditioning of women

The point that was made in Gone Girl is that girls/women are from a young age conditioned to please men and that we are so wrapped up in this and it is so projected on us that at times we can not see it

We get the message from stories, films, media what is in vogue, the internet, how to look how to act from a young age as we get older how to attract men, how to flirt, how to keep men interested how to keep a man happy in bed, how to be a good wife and how to be a good mother

We are bombarded constantly with the how to be better and reminded how not being this way will lead to is feeling bad being sad but who is it for? Ourselves Sad

It's foolish to believe that we are not influenced by this in any way

derxa · 21/10/2015 21:34

I'm too lazy having trouble tearing myself away from the spider thread.
Yes. Why is it all so serious? Surely we want to help people in trouble not give them a lesson in feminist terminology.

Original poster
DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2015 22:29

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread so far.Smile

A few posts have really stood out for me.
It's another way of trying to prevent women from adopting traditionally "male" behaviours by shaming them for doing so and claiming that they were only doing it to please men. In the same way that promiscuous women were labelled "sluts" by other women because they were only "being easy" for male approval.
Thank you Mephistopheles (although I would say that both women and men used and continue to the word "slut" to shame women). I have seen it used on MN to shame women for engaging in consensual sexual behaviour that the name caller disapproves of. I have also seen it used against women who enjoy gaming and football.
I imagine that certain people must possess some sort of telepathic capacity to determine when women are behaving like men to impress men or....because they are being themselves.
This in spades. I can't be sure about the psychic abilities of those using these names, but how do they know, without actually knowing the woman well?Confused

OP posts:
Original poster
DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2015 22:49

I agree that, whilst name calling probably isn't terribly constructive, trying to claim that all women should be above criticism does not help either. .... I think people get upset because there is a lot of truth in the descriptions.

I see no constructive merit to the name calling whatever. Nor do I claim that all or even any women should be above criticism. By all means question the behaviours and challenge them.

I don't think that women are getting upset at all. I think that women are being offended by unpleasant, gender specific insults that blame them for misogyny and oppression. As women's posts on this thread demonstrate.

And apart from my fine bone structure, nothing else about me could be described as delicate.Grin

OP posts:
kali110 · 21/10/2015 22:59

I simply object to a person implying i don't know my own mind.

Original poster
DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2015 23:10

I think a lot of "cool wife" stuff can also slip into "slut" territory.

OddSocks, you have put it into words better than I could.Thanks

OP posts:
Maryz · 21/10/2015 23:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2015 23:24

I feel that "the right type of feminists" don't like women very much either.
Derxa, there does appear to be a fair bit of blaming women for misogyny on this site recently.Sad But there are plenty of feminists here on this thread and this site who support and help women day after day. Both on the internet and in RL.

OP posts:
Original poster
DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2015 23:37

YY Kali and Maryz.Grin

Sorry for the multiple posts.Blush I was just catching up.

OP posts:
TheIncomparableDejahThoris · 22/10/2015 00:00

slugseatlettuce It would be a compliment from a bloke in the street. That, I believe is the point. A "cool girl" is someone who tries to seem like a cool girl.

It's like the difference between being a hipster and having a favourite band that happens to be a bit obscure. Hipsters like bands because they're obscure, and genuine fans just happen to like the music.

So on here, a "cool girl" is shorthand for a woman who does her utmost to seem like a "cool girl", and pretends to like things she doesn't.

All other aspects of the row have been covered in the thread.

BertrandRussell · 22/10/2015 08:37

So is the consensus of this thread that women never, either consciously or unconsciously, collude with the patriarchy? Or if they do, they should not be called out on it?

I know some people are saying that the way to approach it is on an individual basis, but it seems to me that some women follow patterns of behaviour that help to shore up the patriarchy. You see them on here all the time - the "men can't see dirt/can't cook/all watch porn/can't multi task/I blame his mother/of course the children have his name/maybe he's depressed/so much easier if I do it/he's so good, he doesn't press me for sex if I don't feel like it/but he's such a good dad/ and so on. When men are praised for merely behaving like civilised human beings. For example.

It is obviously not appropriate or helpful to say to a woman asking for support "well, stop colluding with the patriarchy, then!" But so often the advice such women get from other women involves "Why not make his favourite dinner and put a bit of make up on" type stuff. Which is equally unhelpful.

And on the subject of porn and sex workers- I have lost count of the number of posts denying that sex workers are exploited. The "paying her way through college" and "she does it because she loves sex" memes are commonplace.

It's very uncomfortable to think about these things. It's very easy to dismiss them as "woman blaming". But one of the first imperatives of particularly second wave feminism was "consciousness raising". It sounds almost quaint now- but pretending the problem doesn't exist is the worst thing we can do. The number of people who say "I really didn't see sexism at all- but once I started seeing it I couldn't stop"

bumbleymummy · 22/10/2015 08:42

I would have thought the general consensus was that labelling someone/name-calling isn't a good way to call someone out on behaviour that, in your opinion, is 'colluding with the patriarchy. Nor is it a good way to 'raise consciousness' because it just tends to put people's backs up.

Maryz · 22/10/2015 09:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BreakingDad77 · 22/10/2015 10:08

Cool girl/wife is not about liking sport drinking beer having sex with lots of partners. It's is about the conditioning of women

Agreed this is what most of us I think are trying to say, people are trying to muddy the water.

Yes true "wrong" is the better term, but it doesn't get over the nature of wrongness, like say calling Britain First 'wrong'.

As bertrandrussel has eloquently put, women are getting advice to act 'wrong' believing they doing the right thing because for their conditioning, we have only moved on a couple of bus stops from "lie back and think of England".

BertrandRussell · 22/10/2015 10:10

"Speaking to people as individuals, respecting their choices, and trying to change attitudes by persuasion rather than abuse is less likely to alienate the very people you (allegedly) are trying to help."

OK. I give up. Fair enough. You win. Not sure what you win or why, though, but if it's so important to you that accuse me of abusing people and you feel the need to put that "allegedly" in it's absolutely no use me posting anything, is it?