To find the terms Cool Wives and Handmaidens...

[DioneTheDiabolist]

...deeply offensive?

I was on a thread today where these phrases were used. I challenged them as IMO they are as bad as the word "slut". Disgusting names that are used exclusively to judge women and put them down.

I am a feminist and none of the feminists I know in RL tolerate the labelling of women in negative terms. However the response I received was so surprising that I thought I would ask: AIBU to find the terms "Cool Wives/Girls" and "Handmaidens" demeaning, dismissive, misogynistic insults?

Like I said Bert, I've not read the other thread. In what way is Op misrepresenting you?

So this really is a thread about a thread, then...

Someone link the thread then.

Not really. From the OP, I think it's just gauging opinions on the use of terms. I don't think it's anymore a TAAT than the thread asking whether children climb trees which was started because of a comment on another thread...

Way to miss the point Dowager. Those of us who agree with the OP have clearly stated it is not only on that thread.

Like those who use that language, I get the impression that some people seem to enjoy aggressively shutting down people who have a different opinion.

I've seen the other thread.

I don't think this is a TAAT, it's a thread that's picked up one little point from another thread and is now musing on that.

I don't think it's all about Bert, whatever she might think.

I talked about women who are quick to say that sexual harassment is just banter, that sex discrimination doesn't happen. There are almost always a couple of women who post along those lines on any thread which talks about women's issues. Then I said- "Why do women deny the lived experience of so many of us? Even their own lived experience in some cases? What's in it for them? I know that some fit into the "cool girl" or "handmaiden" boxes, but surely most don't? What's in it for them?"

That was my only use of the terms.

If I am wrong, and this is not a TAAT then I apologise and withdraw, covered in embarrassment.

I find the 'cool girl' trope grossly offensive, as my girlfriend does all the things that 'cool girls' are meant to, but they are literally just who she is. As she is bisexual, I guess she's also only play acting those things to attract women as well as men.

It's an example of how some parts of the feminist movement have been coopted by the patriarchy to maintain an artificial gender binary.

So you talked about women fitting into boxes (boxes that are used in a degrogatory way) and are now baffled that someone didn't like it.

I can see what you are getting at but I can see why the OP found it offensive.
I

Bertrand I read your thread and agreed with your observations of women who deny what goes on in plain sight. However, I am not one of those women. I am known in my social circle for being a very open and proud champion of women's rights. I have still found myself being called those names (and not in a gentle way!) for disagreeing with some aspects of the apparent 'the collective MN feminist way'.

I haven't read the other thread and in no way support people bundling in to tell vulnerable posters that they should suck up unacceptable behaviour from their partners. On the other hand, I do get annoyed when 'cool girl' is used to dismiss a different point of view in the same way that people on boy/girl threads sometimes insinuate that people can't possibly really be OK with their sons wearing dresses/daughters wearing blue, and must just be trying to appear progressive. As previous posters have said, it is possible to have given a topic thought and genuinely have come to a different conclusion, and it's annoying when the assumption is made that one is adopting a stance just to look 'cool.'

Hmm, I think people are talking about different things now, and the 'Gone Girl' link seems a bit tenuous since cool wife/girl seem to have grown their own meanings over time.

Although 'cool wife' may have grown out of the 'cool girl' trope I think it has become its own, distinct term now. The cool girl trope that Mephistopheles mentions is very different from the cool wife trope used by Bertrand as describing an unhealthy relationship dynamic.

But Meph, I agree with you, I have come across the attitude many times online that young women and girls can't like video games, and that they must only be doing it to try and attract men.

So, basically, a book became a bestseller and this book featured two paragraphs which chimed with many women's experiences of growing up and learning to strike a balance between their personal desires and social expectations of women. Some people started quoting the book as an easy shorthand when trying to discuss issues within relationships.

And now we are on approximately thread 6 on how it is simply 'orrid to use it.

And people are arguing at cross-purposes, coming up with their own definitions and refusing to read eachothers' posts.

Have I left anything out?

I'm pretty sure 'cool wife' was used as a derogatory term on MN before 'cool girl' appeared in Gone Girl. The sentiment behind it has been around for a while.

Imcomparable

I think the problem is cool wife/girl isn't used by women to describe there own experiences (or if it had I've missed it).
It's used by women to describe other women in a degrogatory way.

"Cool Girl" was a thing used before Gone Girl in feminist blogs.

It's another way of trying to prevent women from adopting traditionally "male" behaviours by shaming them for doing so, and claiming that they were only doing it to influence men.

In the same way that promiscuous women were labelled 'sluts' by other women, because they were only 'being easy' for male approval.

Exactly the same sentiment, exactly the same purpose - patriarchalist nonsense trying to restrict behaviours or interests to one gender or another in pursuit of passive social influence.

I'm sure it was around, although in less frequent use, before Gone Girl was published. We're talking about coming up with a snappy term for part of modern life that the author has observed, not developing a new antibiotic. I hate to say it, but remembering being 15 and wanting to be called a "cool girl" is simply not that hard. I can do it!

It

Handmaiden is ridiculous.

One of the arse-licked posters called someone a 'fucking handmaiden' a few weeks ago over an innocuous comment, just made herself look a bigger dick than she already portrays herself.

Gone Girl is a pile of absolute shite so forgive me if I immediately discount anything that's written in it.

What next, lifestyle quotes from Lee Child?

I haven't read Gone Girl but whilst the phrase Cool Girl might be newish, the concept, as others have said is most definitely not. Ariel Levy set it out in "Female Chauvinist Pigs" and that's about 8 years old.

Mistopheles it has been explained, several times now on this and the original thread how the use of the term is NOT the same as "slut." Slut is used against women for behaving like men. Some feminists get frustrated with cool girls precisely because they are not behaving like men. If they were they'd do whatever they liked. If they genuinely do love porn/beer/sport (the activity itself is pretty much itrelevant) then great. The problem is that some women ARE subjugating their own desires and needs and really don't need other women piling in and telling them to be cool, because, you know, they are.

"If they genuinely do love porn/beer/sport (the activity itself is pretty much itrelevant) then great. The problem is that some women ARE subjugating their own desires and needs and really don't need other women piling in and telling them to be cool, because, you know, they are."

For me, the problem is that some MNers are assuming things, telling us how to think and feel, making assumptions and passing judgement because we don't exactly fit into their neat little box.

wasabipeanut

I imagine that certain people must possess some sort of telepathic capacity to determine when women are behaving like men to impress men, or behaving like men because they are being themselves.

In reality, it's feminists being judgemental about the behaviours of other women in order to exert the same social control that those who call women sluts are attempting. The clue is how it is still about "behaving like men" - demonstrating the importance of reinforcing the gender distinction by linking behaviours of which feminists disapprove to their constructed "toxic masculinity."

It's either demonstrating hypocritical dis-ingenuity or embarrassing incoherence.

I agree saucony. Whenever I've seen the 'cool wife' thing bandied around on MN it's usually a petty dig from someone who is irked that another woman doesn't feel aggrieved about the same things as she does.

One of the arse-licked posters called someone a 'fucking handmaiden' a few weeks ago over an innocuous comment, just made herself look a bigger dick than she already portrays herself.

I saw that too. Shocked me a bit to be honest.