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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To find the terms Cool Wives and Handmaidens...

296 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/10/2015 20:59

...deeply offensive?

I was on a thread today where these phrases were used. I challenged them as IMO they are as bad as the word "slut". Disgusting names that are used exclusively to judge women and put them down.

I am a feminist and none of the feminists I know in RL tolerate the labelling of women in negative terms. However the response I received was so surprising that I thought I would ask: AIBU to find the terms "Cool Wives/Girls" and "Handmaidens" demeaning, dismissive, misogynistic insults?

OP posts:
CassieBearRawr · 20/10/2015 23:36

Pinot, you can't just change the definition of a well known term. Fair enough you've never heard the terms before today and it's new to you, ok. But in the context of this thread they are set phrases that have a set meaning. You saying they don't doesn't actually change that.

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2015 23:36

When I use the term "cool girl" I am quoting this I thought it was more widespread than it appears to be- I'll remember that another time. I did not use the term "cool wife"

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2015 23:37

Ilovesooty- I made it very clear in the thread that this thread is about.

WorraLiberty · 20/10/2015 23:43

If someone has an intelligent or meaningful argument to make then imo it's probably better to make it, than to lazily throw 'cool wife' or 'handmaiden' at that person.

Some women are genuinely happy with choices/decisions that other women aren't.

All women are different. That doesn't automatically mean a woman who is genuinely ok with something is a 'handmaiden', just as it doesn't automatically mean that a woman who isn't ok with something is insecure or jealous.

I think it's the lazy, automatic assumptions that get people's backs up on MN to be honest.

CarlaJones · 20/10/2015 23:43

How is "menz" used?

pinotblush · 20/10/2015 23:51

Its a word.

I like cool.

Im a cool mum.

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2015 23:55

This is pretty tedious. But I actually used the terms in s much more nuanced way than the OP suggests. If people are interested it's easy to look up what I said. But hey ho. She's never been one for letting the truth get in the way of a good story.

Maryz · 20/10/2015 23:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pinotblush · 20/10/2015 23:58

most positive words can be used in a negative way

im a cool mum

my son is cool

i dont get my hair off about a spin on a positive word

BertrandRussell · 21/10/2015 00:11

"don't quite get the "we are the right type of feminists, we can tell other women what to think and say and feel" that some of these threads degenerate into."

There was no suggestion of this in my thread.

Original poster
DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2015 00:15

Yeah, it meant something totally different when I was 18 too Pinot.

OP posts:
BitOfFun · 21/10/2015 01:11

Worra, yes, I agree that being insulted by other women on the internet is unlikely to help. That's why I said "I've never called anybody either though, because it's only likely to make them more defensive, and it's pretty rude" too, to qualify my statement. I think there are better and more persuasive ways to get the point across.

Original poster
DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2015 01:33

Shaming women, blaming them and calling them names because they do not conform to patriarchal norms is misogynistic. I never thought I would see the same disgusting tactic used by feminists.Sad

OP posts:
kali110 · 21/10/2015 01:36

Yes i've been called a cool wife/gf before for simply saying i don't have a problem with my partner watching porn, and that i am clearly only going along with it too keep him as i clearly have no mind of my own Hmm
Noone ever replies when i say that i watched it way before we got together...
I see it a lot on porn and relationship threads.
A woman says they have no problem with what their man is doing be it porn, female friends and some posters say that they are simply the cool wives/gfs.
That the cool ones go along with whatever the man wants simply to please him or keep him and that they are lying to themselves.
Simply an insult because they can't quite believe that some of us have a different opinion.

Original poster
DioneTheDiabolist · 21/10/2015 01:43

I would like to point out at this stage that Gone Girl (from which the "Cool Girl definition comes) is an amaxing movie. If you haven't seen it before, you should watch it.Grin

OP posts:
Garrick · 21/10/2015 02:07

I'll have to catch up on this thread when the loading issue's been fixed and I haven't drunk too much vodka while pressing Ctrl-F5.

I don't mind those terms, Dione, as they're useful shorthand in certain contexts. And I have - once - used 'handmaidens' as a deliberate put-down on a Relationships thread that was being overwhelmed by posters telling the OP to put up & shut up. At least it drew fire away from her.

IRL, I'd probably only use those terms in company that I know would immediately get what I mean, which doesn't happen that often. Having said this, I'm now remembering that I've said both to my supposedly anti-feminist sister and gay best friend, both of whom understood straight away ... thus revealing their secretly feministy ideas

I suppose it depends on whether you assume they're being said in a derisory way or just used as a time-saving device, to sum up a particular world-view? I mean, you and I would probably define 'patriarchal' differently if we were forced to detail all that it means. But we don't quibble overmuch about its normal usage.

OddSocksHighHeels · 21/10/2015 02:39

Somebody said upthread that cool girl/wife=acceptable to patriarchy and slut=unacceptable to patriarchy. I struggle to agree with this.

If I said I'm in an open relationship there's a good chance I'd be disbelieved in my genuine happiness and it's all because I'm a "cool wife" but, at the same time, I'm shagging about while in a relationship so I'm a slut too. I think a lot of "cool wife" stuff can also slip into "slut" territory. That's what annoys me the most I think.

BitOfFun · 21/10/2015 02:40

"Shaming women, blaming them and calling them names because they do not conform to patriarchal norms is misogynistic."

I agree that making people feel crap is not really useful in a debate, especially if you hope to change their minds, but in this case these phrases are doing the opposite to criticising women for not conforming to patriarchal norms: they are holding women to account for buying into those norms. It is accusing some women of undermining others by trying to get a leg-up out of man-pleasing, basically. The people who are rejecting patriarchal norms, albeit crudely and in an undiplomatic fashion, are the ones who are calling other women out in this way.

Senpai · 21/10/2015 03:01

Somehow MN decided that Gone Girl was the bees knees at one point, and people here started quoting it while ironically missing the fact that the main character who invented the term was a sociopath who had a skewed version of the world.

It's sort of like quoting the Cheshire Cat and saying "We're all mad here" while failing to realize the context.

Anyway, it doesn't happen outside MN because people outside MN have reading comprehension skills.

BertrandRussell · 21/10/2015 03:09

"Shaming women, blaming them and calling them names because they do not conform to patriarchal norms is misogynistic."
I agree. That is why "slut" is unacceptable. "Handmaid" and "cool girl" are doing the exact opposite.

derxa · 21/10/2015 05:44

don't quite get the "we are the right type of feminists, we can tell other women what to think and say and feel" that some of these threads degenerate into
Exactly. I often feel that the 'handmaiden' label is thrown out as an insult to people who disagree with the 'right type of feminist'. People like me who like both men and women. People who don't think all men are nasty abusive bastards. In fact I feel that the 'right type of feminists' don't like women very much either.

wasabipeanut · 21/10/2015 06:39

I was on the original thread and I agree that, whilst name calling probably isn't terribly constructive, trying to claim that all women should be above criticism does not help either. I understand the terms cool girl/wife and handmaiden and, frankly, I think people get upset because there is a lot of truth in the descriptions.

Often feminist arguments are batted back by women with the, "well, some women are dicks too." Well, yes they are and other women have a right to call them on it. Trying to prevent women ever criticising others means limiting feminism and reducing the chances of it ever succeeding.

BertrandRussell · 21/10/2015 07:20

So it's OK to say that feminists think men are nasty abusive bastards (which is patently untrue, considering how many of us live with and love our male partners and sons) but not OK to call out as "handmaidens" the women who collude with the patriarchy by siding against other women with the minority of men who are nasty abusive bastards. Which happens. Read the relationships threads.

As wasabi says, women can be dicks too.

Helmetbymidnight · 21/10/2015 07:23

I don't know the original thread.

I've also seen it used when op is very uncomfortable with something her partner is doing. 35 posters tell her that they are perfectly fine with that and what's the matter with her?

I suppose the correct and fragrant response would be to smile sweetly and leave them to it.

derxa · 21/10/2015 07:37

I've also seen it used when op is very uncomfortable with something her partner is doing. 35 posters tell her that they are perfectly fine with that and what's the matter with her?
Yes a recent thread where the OP's DP was arranging a dinner with another woman without telling the OP. Everyone kept saying how she was 'controlling' because she wasn't happy. I thought that it was ridiculous. Is this the cool girl thing then? Where you're quite happy for your partner to go out on dates with other women?
So it's OK to say that feminists think men are nasty abusive bastards
I didn't say that.