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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To find the terms Cool Wives and Handmaidens...

296 replies

DioneTheDiabolist · 20/10/2015 20:59

...deeply offensive?

I was on a thread today where these phrases were used. I challenged them as IMO they are as bad as the word "slut". Disgusting names that are used exclusively to judge women and put them down.

I am a feminist and none of the feminists I know in RL tolerate the labelling of women in negative terms. However the response I received was so surprising that I thought I would ask: AIBU to find the terms "Cool Wives/Girls" and "Handmaidens" demeaning, dismissive, misogynistic insults?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 21/10/2015 07:45

Sorry. "The right type of feminists" think men are nasty abusive bastards.

Derxa- did you see the link to the definition of "cool girl" from the book I posted earlier? I didn't read the thread about the Dp making a dinner date so I can't comment, sorry.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 21/10/2015 07:47

She's never been one for letting the truth get in the way of a good story

Or maybe she just has a different view of the word than you.

Lots of posters have said this before. It very much looks like you struggle to understand people with a different point of view to your own.

Saying she never lets the truth get in the way of a good story is more dismissive language.

bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 07:55

"It rather depends on how you define anti feminist behaviour."

Yes to this.

"I don't quite get the "we are the right type of feminists, we can tell other women what to think and say and feel" that some of these threads degenerate into."

I agree that this happens quite a lot on certain threads and is off-putting.

Dione, I thought the book was much better than the movie. :)

SlaggyIsland · 21/10/2015 07:56

YABU. Both terms have their place.

RainbowFlutterby · 21/10/2015 08:05

Can I just ask why women whose lifestyle choices don't fit in with MNFeminism are colluding with the patriarchy?

Perhaps they are just living their lives in way that makes them happy without putting too much thought or effort in?

Ubik1 · 21/10/2015 08:07

What about the menz wa a term used to shout down anyone who ventured the opinion that not all men were conspiring on behalf of the patriarchy. Also see 'Not my Nigel...' Which positions anyone who disagrees as an ignorant person.

StormyBlue · 21/10/2015 08:09

I have never used them myself, but always thought of them as referring to an oppressive cliche, quite different from a hateful direct insult like "slut", for example (though I am aware that cool wife is sometimes used against an individual). So, no, I don't find cool wife as offensive as slut.

However, I'm sure that they are lazily used. Instead of dismissing opinions as being cool wifey it would probably be a lot more useful to critique the "cool wife" attitude in context.

So instead of complaining about "cool wives" on a porn thread, it would be a lot more constructive to tell the OP not to listen to those telling her to sell out on her boundaries out of desperation to become more appealing to her husband, or insecurity that he might leave you if you aren't his doormat.

It might even make the "you're being ridiculous, let him do what he likes" posters think twice, where as scoffing that they are "cool wives" will probably just piss them off.

Helmetbymidnight · 21/10/2015 08:11

Well yes, rainbow. I'm sure those women wouldn't be criticising a woman who is uncomfortable with her husband doing nothing round the house/regularly watching porn/going on secret dates etc.

Senpai · 21/10/2015 08:28

I've also seen it used when op is very uncomfortable with something her partner is doing. 35 posters tell her that they are perfectly fine with that and what's the matter with her?

Yes, posters here forget that just because their DP can go out with another woman and have it be strictly plutonic doesn't mean OP's DP would. I would be ok with DP going out to lunch with a girl, but then we've had 10 years to build up trust and never keep secrets from each other. But if DP was acting secretive, I'd be upset about it.

The problem with "cool girls" is that most girls that are doormats like that are in abusive relationships or having self esteem issues. It's never as simple as trying to be the perfect girl. But again, character in Gone Girl is a sociopath who does not care about other people's feelings, she sees people as things to be manipulated. So "cool girls" makes no sense in context outside the book. It's suppose to illustrate how cynical and removed from human empathy Amy is as opposed to the act she puts on for everyone.

The term is just nonsensical outside the book, and just plain irritating to watch people try to use it in earnest to shut down opposition. It's like I'm watching a small child say a naughty word without truly understanding the context of it every time I see that stupid phrase. Except they're adults, so it's just pathetic instead of cute or funny.

WorldsBiggestGrotbag · 21/10/2015 08:34

It's like I'm watching a small child say a naughty word without truly understanding the context of it every time I see that stupid phrase. Except they're adults, so it's just pathetic instead of cute or funny.

Yes, this exactly. This is what I think every time I see it but couldn't quite put it into words.

StormyBlue · 21/10/2015 08:36

Can I just ask why women whose lifestyle choices don't fit in with MNFeminism are colluding with the patriarchy?

Bertrand said "collude with the patriarchy by siding against other women with the minority of men who are nasty abusive bastards". She was referring to women who tell other women to put up with abusive relationships, not women who live a certain lifestyle.

TheDowagerCuntess · 21/10/2015 08:38

I can't get too worked up about it, and certainly don't think it's 'deeply, deeply offensive', as someone said earlier in the thread. You need to get out more of you think being called a cool girl is 'deeply, deeply offensive'! Annoying and tedious, maybe.

I do think there is a sub-set of women who fall into the 'cool girl' category, who try to make out that they're OK with things that they actually do not like at all. If you know you're genuinely OK with something, like your DH having women friends (does anyone's DH not, in this day and age?!), then who gives a shiny one, if some faceless random off t'internet calls you a cool girl for it?

What I find interesting, is that there is no reverse phenomenon. There is no 'cool boy'. Men - especially young men - simply do not need to pretend to be OK with stuff they deep-down do not like (or even are genuinely uncountable with), to keep/impress a girl.

MrsJayy · 21/10/2015 08:39

Yanbu they are words used to beat other women witb it is ridiculous real life feminisim is a world away from mumsnet feminism thougb.

Helmetbymidnight · 21/10/2015 08:41

It's funny that those who use the terms - cool girls- are subject to such vitriol whereas those who would say to an uncomfortable woman 'Ffs, there's nothing wrong with that- you controlling, needy, insecure thing' are just fine and dandy and trying to help.
Ho hum.

bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 08:43

Dowager, there may not be a specific 'term' for it but I think a lot of young men feel the need to pretend to be ok with things they're not - whether it's with women or their friends or whatever. There are a lot of expectations of young people these days and I think boys/young men often struggle and are less likely to come forward if they are having problems. (This was touched on in the other thread)

Sorry, don't want to derail but I do disagree with that point.

RainbowFlutterby · 21/10/2015 08:51

Thank you Stormy I see the point now, and from that it clearly is used as an insult. Although that person may be behaving in a way that deserves the insult.

TheDowagerCuntess · 21/10/2015 08:56

All people, from all walks of life struggle with different aspects of life (and men certainly experience pressure to conform, or whatever, from other men), but I maintain that there is no real gender reverse of this.

Let's agree to disagree on that point, shall we?

saucony · 21/10/2015 08:58

I'm interested to see a couple of people saying "it wasn't what I meant on that thread" which is fair enough. However, you are missing the point if you think some of the posts on this thread are only talking about that particular thread. I avoid the relationships board but have been on threads on AIBU and Chat and seen some hideous behaviour using these terms in a scathing manner. For me, it's not the labels but the judgments that accompany them.

BertrandRussell · 21/10/2015 08:59

"She's never been one for letting the truth get in the way of a good story

Or maybe she just has a different view of the word than you.

Lots of posters have said this before. It very much looks like you struggle to understand people with a different point of view to your own.

Saying she never lets the truth get in the way of a good story is more dismissive language."

I am perfectly happy to be disagreed with. What I am not happy with is someone starting a thread about something I said and misrepresenting me.

And yes, I did use dismissive language. Because Dione has behaved in a thoroughly shabby and unpleasant way for some reason best known to herself.

bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 09:02

Ok Dowager, for the sake of not derailing, we can agree to disagree.

startrek90 · 21/10/2015 09:09

Can I just point out to Ubik1 that this bespectacled, tattooed gamer nerd girl is not trying to be cool. I like what I like. I didn't get into it because I wanted DH. It is possible for a woman to like that sort of stuff without it being about a guy you know.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 21/10/2015 09:12

What I am not happy with is someone starting a thread about something I said and misrepresenting me

I confess I haven't seen the "original" thread so can't really comment on what was said and in what context.

Calling the op shabby and unpleasant seems like just another way of dismissing her instead of actually addressing her points.

bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 09:29

Bert, I can completely relate to that feeling of been misrepresented and/or people behaving shabbily and unpleasantly towards you. It really isn't a nice feeling.

However, in your OP on that other thread you did use these terms and you did use them in a negative way to refer to a certain 'type'/group of women. I'm not really sure how you think you've been misrepresented.

BertrandRussell · 21/10/2015 09:31

Whenshe- I addressed her points repeatedly on the other thread.

Starting a thread about a thread and misrepresenting the person who started the original thread is shabby and unpleasant. I see no reason why I should not say so.

bumbleymummy · 21/10/2015 09:32

Being*

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