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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To feel it is high time that Israel/Palestinian issue got resolved?

534 replies

SippyDippy · 12/10/2015 21:56

conflict us starting up again. I cannot bear another round of children being killed indiscriminately. The super powers would have you believe that it is all oh so very complicated. its not though is it. It is so bloody unfair how those children will keep dying if the status quo is maintained. Something needs to change.

OP posts:
Shakshuka · 19/10/2015 00:05

And I've realized now why sippy's op says that the superpowers (aka the U.S. under Israel's thumb of course) would have you believe the conflict is oh so complicated.

I found that baffling given that the vast majority of people recognize that this is a complex conflict which has lasted more than a century with legitimate claims and grievances on both sides.

But of course the conflict is not complicated when you think one side is totally satanic with no legitimacy and the other saintly victims who can do no wrong. If you can only think Israel = bad and Palestine = good then of course the conflict is easy and we only think it is complicated as have been manipulated by demonic Israel.

SlaggyIsland · 20/10/2015 15:12

Source

Palestinian Christian Views of the Current Conflict | A Report
Posted on October 17, 2015 by robertowensmith
Herewith, a report of the meeting of Palestinian Christians convened by Co-Moderators of the Palestine Israel Ecumenical Forum of the World Council of Churches.
— Meeting Report —
On 7 October 2015, a group of local Christians met at the invitation of the Co-Moderators of the Palestine-Israel Ecumenical Forum. The goal of the meeting was to assess the current situation and then to discern what Christians should be saying in the local context and on the international level regarding the situation.We anticipate that this will not be the last such gathering to discuss challenges faced by Palestinians, including Christians.

Our group stressed that the present conflict is between the Palestinian people and the Israeli occupation. In other words, the conflict will not end until the occupation ends. Many commentators are wondering if this is the beginning of another so-called intifada. Our group agreed that naming this moment or speculating how long it will endure was less important than addressing the moment’s many causes.

Palestinians have for several decades experienced the organized, bureaucratic, and military violence of Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. The group agreed that most Israelis seem unaware of the occupation and its negative effects on Palestinian communities and individuals. Although strongly committed to nonviolent resistance, the group agreed that Israelis, and with them the world, address Palestinians directly only when Palestinians resist occupation through violent means.

In addition to the retrenchment of the occupation through the growth of existing settlements, the establishment of new settlements, the increasing development of settlement infrastructure, house demolitions, and forced population transfers, Palestinians have grown increasingly vulnerable to harassment and violence from settlers themselves. This violence was manifested most horrifically in the firebombing of the Dawabsheh family home in the West Bank village of Duma in late September. In order to protect intelligence sources, the State of Israel has decided to pursue “no legal recourse” in the matter despite claiming to know who perpetrated the attack.

More recently, it was made clear to Palestinians that the possibility of establishing a sovereign Palestinian state by peaceful means had all but evaporated. The group agreed that both the present government of Israel and the so-called Israeli opposition had agreed to bury the possibility of a two-state solution. Given this closure of a political horizon for Palestinian national aspirations, violent action against the occupation is seen by many Palestinians as the only remaining viable option. Unfortunately, Palestinians have seen that resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is no longer a priority of the international community. President Obama’s omission of the conflict in his recent speech before the UN General Assembly illustrates this shift. Palestinians are left on their own, without non-violent political options; their choices are capitulation to their occupiers or resistance.
Religious Conflict a Growing Concern

These political concerns are being compounded with religious convictions, leading the Israeli-Palestinian conflict closer to religious conflict. Israeli encroachments on the Al-Aqsa Mosque Compound in the Old City of Jerusalem only increase this possibility. Last week saw an unprecedented closure of Jerusalem’s Old City to Palestinians not residing within its walls. This shocking move allowed Jewish settlers to move throughout the city, taunting and attacking Palestinians, all under police escort. Now, we are seeing moves to close certain Old City streets to Palestinians in a manner very similar to the closure of areas in Hebron. The Hebronization of Jerusalem is beginning despite warnings from moderate Arab leaders that such moves threatening the historic status quo of Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa Mosque could lead to religious conflict.

Palestinian Christian communities see the slide toward religious conflict—a conflict between “Islam” and “the West” as represented by Israel—as very dangerous not only for the region but for their own survival. There is speculation that the current Israeli government believes that framing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a religious war will help it achieve territorial goals. Such a warwould fit the mold of the current multinational military struggle in Syria. This is one way to make sense of the current Israeli targeting of Christian properties, both in acts of arson against Christian holy sites but also in official government actions to seize Christian land (in, for instance, the Al-Baraka compound north of Hebron and the Cremisan Valley). While a religious conflict may arouse western sympathies, therefore minimizing political and diplomatic pressures on Israel’s occupation policies, local Christian communities will only experience threat and uncertainty.

Recent speeches at the UN General Assembly demonstrated that Palestine is not a top issue for the international community. The silence of the international community has a dual effect: increasing despair among Palestinians and a sense of license among Israelis. Ongoing fragmentation among Palestinian political factions hampers their ability to mount unified political opposition. There is a growing sense among Palestinians that only action from the international community can bring the current Israeli government under control. Israeli settlers act with impunity granted by a state that is granted impunity through the international community’s inaction.

The Christian Witness

Given this analysis, we must ask: What is the voice and witness of Christians in the present moment? What should the churches, church-related organizations, and individual Christians be saying and doing on the local and international levels?

Christians are bound first and foremost to bear witness to the truth. Christian communities in Palestine are calling attention to changes taking place in the current moment. Since Israeli leaders changed rules for the use of lethal force in Jerusalem and the West Bank, we have seen more Palestinians—especially young Palestinians—killed by Israeli security forces, both military and paramilitary police. Even unarmed Palestinians in Hebron and minors in Aida Refugee Camp have not escaped these new policies of shooting to kill. In contrast to these Israeli policies, approved at the highest levels, most Palestinian acts of violence have not been planned by organizations. For the most part, they have resulted from the personal reactions of individuals after seeing our people killed in cold blood and seeing Muslim and Christian holy sites desecrated by settlers. The current violence is an asymmetrical struggle between sides with vastly different levels of power. While Palestinian Christians lament when violence is directed at any of God’s children, they reject the assumption that Palestinians are inherently more violent than Israelis.

Locally, our group identified three strong priorities for the Christian voice:

  1. Christians are an integral part of the Palestinian people, sharing all national aspirations and strongly supporting the struggle for justice and liberation from Israeli occupation. Because we are committed to “creative resistance” that is nonviolent in character, we are involved at every level of the struggle.
  1. Palestinian Christians urge the churches to strengthen the call for national unity in Palestinian politics. Even as we empower our grassroots, the churches should be tending to our national political vision. In this way, we can contribute to the steadfastness (sumud) not of Christians alone but the entire Palestinian community.
  1. The present phase of the struggle could last months, even years. We therefore need to begin developing plans to prevent a wave of Christian emigration. We offer a hopeful alternative, even as we encourage our people to remain steadfast, staying in their homes, not selling their land. For this, we need a holistic, church-based approach where our leaders focus on strengthening Palestinian identity, providing jobs and income, and developing new forms of constructive relationships withChristians worldwide.

We additionally identified five priorities for the international voice of the churches, including the WCC:

  1. The churches globally must call on the international community to hold the State of Israel accountable for its continued support of its illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. The present wave of violent confrontation can be halted. Any action from the international community to decrease Israel’s impunity will indicate to Palestinians that non-violent political means can bear fruit, thus decreasing the despair of the present moment. The present violence is being allowed to continue as a reward for Israel’s false opposition to the Iran nuclear deal. Something must be done to create a political horizon. Silences on this matter are unacceptable.
  1. Jerusalem must be emphasized as a city of two peoples (Israelis and Palestinians) and three faiths (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam). The churches should call strongly for maintaining the historic status quo of all holy sites in Jerusalem, not allowing the sites to become part of the political struggle. As Christians, we stand with Muslims seeking to protect the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound from provocative incursions and with the many Jews who warn against unnecessary provocation. We have never before seen the gates of Jerusalem closed for Palestinians. Such actions must never be allowed.
  1. International protection for Palestinian civilians has emerged as a key need in this present phase of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We call on the churches globally to invoke the “responsibility to protect” doctrine as it applies to the intentionally disempowered and defenseless Palestinian population living under military occupation.
  1. We call on the churches globally to increase economic pressures on the State of Israel, both through the movement of boycott, divestment, and sanctions and through rule-based approaches affecting international commerce.
  1. Challenging Christian Zionism and all other forms of Christian theology that provide justification for Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory and disregard for the Palestinian people. The call for justice in the present moment is also a call for Christian unity.
Shakshuka · 21/10/2015 00:29

Quoting from a meeting of Palestinians is clearly only to show one side.

Nonetheless, I'd agree with some of the points made.

What I'd take issue with is:

The tacit support for violence. If you oppose violence, stand up and say it . They seem to say well, we're Christian so we're officially against violence but there's no other way.

Palestinians and Israelis were moving to a two state solution when the Palestinians started the second intifada. If they wouldn't have resorted to violence, they'd probably have a state by now so they can't say that only violence wins.

The meeting completely ignores the increasingly religious nature of the conflict and increasing Islamic extremism and Christian persecution within Palestinian society. A slogan of Hamas is 'after Saturday comes Sunday' - the threat is quite clear.

And while many of the attacks are 'lone wolf' they ignore the incitement of the Palestinian leadership and the lack of condemnation of attacks.

Why is the Israeli opposition called 'so called'? One of the largest opposition parties is the 'united Arab List', mainly Israeli Palestinian Knesset members. Why are they being delegitimized?

And while the occupation is a barrier to peace, removing the occupation is necessary but not sufficient condition to achieve peace. The occupation should end because it's wrong but I'm under no illusion that will then lead to peace.

If it were just the occupation, then why was there no peace before 1967? No Palestinian state? The peace talks failed not because Israel wasn't ready to end the occupation, there was agreement on that issue. It's Jerusalem and the right of return, not the occupation.

mimishimmi · 21/10/2015 01:43

Naim Giladi has an interesting insider account of what happened in Middle Eastern countries after WW2. He claimed that Zionist agents from outside those countries did dirty deals with the governments in those countries to deliberately stir up antisemitism so that ordinary Jews would be forced to leave and form the population base that Israel so badly needed. So is this what is going on now? Is it what happened in WW2 (holocaust deniers are either idiots or tools )? Maybe they'd be only too happy if there's a backlash in Western countries. It sucks because there is nothing worse than having your country run by violent fascists with a racial supremacist attitude. It has a lot to do with low Western birthrates. We're even more scared of the Nazi type crowd... Jewish people at least have somewhere to go. We get lumped with them.

AugustaHill · 21/10/2015 01:51

Recently read some literature on intergenerational PTSD- how the experiences of parents and grandparents can traumatise future generations, how PTSD generated reactions can even become an entrenched part of a community's culture.

I think both the Israelis and Palestinians are now well into that kind of cultural territory. Generations of cultural trauma from the diaspora, pogroms and the Holocaust on the Israeli side, then the understandable desperate need to have a secure homeland in order that such things cannot happen again. Frequent invasion, conquest and reconquest on that territory going back to before the Alexander the Great leading up to nearly 70 years of the current occupation, similarly leads to an understandable and desperate need to defend and recapture the homeland.

How do you get past that history?

Bambambini · 21/10/2015 09:34

The occupation needs to end, the settlements pulled out. Israel can't hide forever behind the mantle of we are only defending ourselves, they can't keep treating the Palestinians the way that they are.

It's easy to say all this from the security of the UK on my ipad, not being in a tiny country surrounded by hostile neighbours who would happily see you wiped out and have tried to do just that in the past, one neighbour being Isis in Syria.

I also have doubts that even if the occupation ends and it should that there will Peace.

Bambambini · 21/10/2015 09:40

AugustaHill, completely agree. Both sides are dealing from PTSD. I don't think unless you have been in their position - we can really understand what drives either sides.

samG76 · 21/10/2015 10:52

Mimishimmi - the stuff about Zionist agents sounds like utter drivel to me. The Farhud anti-Jewish pogrom in Iraq was sponsored by anti-Zionists such as the Palestinian leader and Nazi collaborator Al-Husseini. Are you seriously suggesting that that any of the Israeli refugees made a mistake in leaving? Do any of the Yemenites, Libyans or Iraqi Jews wish they had stayed?

Shakshuka · 21/10/2015 15:35

Bambambini

Have you read Ari Shavit? He says much the same about separating the occupation and peace and says that the linking of the two in Israel is problematic.

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