To feel it is high time that Israel/Palestinian issue got resolved?

[SippyDippy]

conflict us starting up again. I cannot bear another round of children being killed indiscriminately. The super powers would have you believe that it is all oh so very complicated. its not though is it. It is so bloody unfair how those children will keep dying if the status quo is maintained. Something needs to change.

Oh my goodness, you're right nom!

I hadnt bothered reading the article.

What's more disturbing is the need to portray Hamas as not that bad. I mean, the things they do to their own people are horrendous. Far more innocent Palestinians have died at their hands than Israeli.

If you're pro peace rather than just an Israel hater, there is no problem criticizing Israel while condemning Hamas for what it is - a terror group.

Nom nom, you don't want to live in a Muslim country where your rights would be violated, yet have no qualms living in an apartheid state which continues to deny other people's human rights. Well, aren't you a delightful being. As long as you're alright Jack, who cares about Palestinians who get shot every week, just as long as you are comfortable and your rights aren't violated. What a delightful person you are. Yes, off you go and party on at the gay parade. So upholding of human rights along with gay rights that Israel is, along with a stabbing or two by the apartheid state's sizeable extremist section of society.

Great party that, even if it is a facade, as just a few miles away the Palestinian gays are getting blackmailed by the most moral army in the world. Yes, the same state that is throwing gay parades is threatening to expose gay Palestinians to Hamas unless they become informants for the occupation. One big sick joke!

Yes, I said force. And by force, I mean Israel, the rogue state that occupies people, treats them with indignity, kills them and then demands protection from the people it has victimised.

Swaddleaholic,
Yes a loss of life is a loss of life, but you are wrong when you say that Israel (as in people in Israel) does not celebrate loss of life.
During the last onslaught in Gaza, people in israel were sitting on hill tops on sofas with popcorn watching the show.

www.nytimes.com/2014/07/15/world/middleeast/israelis-watch-bombs-drop-on-gaza-from-front-row-seats.html?_r=0

Another group of Israelis were singing during that war ' tomorrow there's no school in Gaza, there's no children left,ole!'

mondoweiss.net/2014/07/tomorrow-children-israeli

Hilarious singing about killing every child isn't it.

Swaddleaholic, during the same war a MN poster found it hilarious that a palestinian mother wasn't saving her kids when Israel warned them of imminent bombing of their home by 'roof-knocking' and the mother was instead going to the roof to have a roof 'party', as the poster put it. the poster could not understand why a palestinian mother who had nowhere to run or hide, gathered her children and ran to the roof to show the army that there are children in the house in the hope that her kids will be spared by the moral army. Suffice to say that they weren't spared. This harrowing ordeal and death and destruction was glibly referred to as a roof party by theposter. I remember reading that and so appalled was I, that it stayed with me. So yes, Israeli apologists do find the loss of Palestinian life quite funny.

There are also those who (rightly) want human rights, dont want to (rightly) live somewhere that denies them their rights but they certainly have no qualms living in an apartheid state that denies a whole nation (palestinians) any human rights. It actively dehumanises them. The song about the Gaza school shows the extent of depraved thinking.

Israel demonization again.

A few dozen people from Sderot, a town under almost constant bombardment from Gaza, does not equal 'people in Israel'.

Certainly not the level of handing out sweets and celebrating every time innocent Israeli citizens are killed.

You know, sippy, in this whole thread I haven't seen ONE word criticizing the Palestinians or ONE word commending Israel for anything. That's not an objective or balanced view. You're just an Israel hater, not a peace lover.

By the way, the children were forced on to the roof by Hamas after the army had warned them that they were going to bomb.

The said poster was appalled by the loss of life but as well as being critical of Israel for jnsufficient care for Palestinian life, was also outraged that Hamas would round children up to place them on roofs to be bombed. The use of the word party was ill advised and apologized for but the tone and intent was sarcastic as in 'you don't hold a fucking roof party after you've been told the house will be bombed.'

But the Israel haters and demonizers pounced on that as evidence of Israeli joy at Palestinian deaths. Quite desperate in my opinion.

Enjoyed searching my username (a bit passive aggresive...)

Why should Palestinian gays be blackmailable I wonder? Given that the Palestinians are apparently a beacon of human rights? What wold happen to them if Hamas found out that they are gay? Do the lovely, non-terrorist group Hamas not respect gay rights I wonder?

Do you realize, Sippy, that the vast majority of Palestinians live under Palestinian Authority civil control? I'm not denying that this means that there is not an occupation nor that Israel infringes on Palestinian human rights to meet their own needs (which I think is wrong and of which I am critical of Israel). But most Palestinian human rights are, in fact, denied by their own society, their fellow Palestinians.

Actually, that's not quite right. The Palestinians living outside the West Bank - such as those in Syria and Lebanon - are in a far worse situation with they really don't have any human rights - denied to them by Syria and Lebanon. You know that Lebanon is actually a genuinely apartheid state where Palestinians are not allowed to own land or work in certain professions. Why do people who ostensibly care about Palestinians ever mention this?

I was looking throguh this thread from the beginning (I was on my phone before so hadn't read through properly).

The posts here are rather deranged and contradictory.

Sippy said 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free'.

And then said 'I don't want Israel to cease to exist'.

But then refused to explain where Israel would exist considering that Palestine is going to exist from the river to the sea.

You see, Sippy, here's a geography lesson on the Middle East as you've clearly not understood. The river referred to here is the Jordan river. And the sea is the Mediterranean sea.

So people who go around using that slogan are saying that they wish to exterminate Israel, that they wish Israel will be wiped out. And it's flung around so easily by people who think they are oh so right on and oh so forward thinking when really they haven't got a clue what they're saying.

Someone who uses that phrase and then backpedals and says 'oh, but it's ok for Israel to exist' (ta very much for the permission) has clearly been spending a bit too much time on certain websites without actually understanding the situation in the middle east.

And to end for the evening on a more positive note, some photos from my FB feed from friends at different demonstrations for peace in both Beer Sheva and Jerusalem this evening.

The signs in Hebrew and Arabic says things like 'No violence', 'Together', 'There is another way'. Go them!!

Shakshuka that is encouraging. I think the biggest obstacle at the moment to any sort of resolution is the huge polarisation of opinion on both sides.
You've seen my personal opinion and, whilst my perspective differs from yours, I'm sure we can agree that the ideal outcome is a peaceful resolution being reached where everybody can live in safety with their homes, land, freedom and dignity assured.

nomnom I find it in poor taste that you've suggested I favour a war as an option. I never again in my life want to see anything like last summer's Gaza bombardment.

A thought-provoking piece, by an Israeli:

Link

"An Apology to My Killer in the Event of my Death in the Current Wave of Violence

If I get killed in a terrorist attack, I ask that the endless broadcasts loop of the report about my murder, as is the custom currently, be dispensed with. It is not what I want. It will contain no information that the public would want or need to know about. It would just stir up hatred. I would ask that my killers, if they remain alive, be told on my behalf that I apologize. I am reconciled with them after my death.
And if my murderers also die, I apologize to them at this time, in advance; not because I deserved to die, and not because they have the right to kill me, but so my death is worth something, so it has some value, some significance, no matter how small. I have no God. I don’t need the Temple Mount. I have no problem living with the Palestinians as full equals in a binational state or as a peace-loving neighbors in my country and next to their own. What use would I have for revenge on my behalf after my death? I apologize for my paltry role in the injustice of the occupation. Even after my death."

sorry i forgot, they were baout to then some dubious phone calls and resignations what not (as had happened every time justice has come close to being dealt) meant they avoided it.
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/17/un-officials-accused-buckling-israeli-pressure-childrens-rights-list
electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/un-providing-israel-cover-killing-gazas-children

The cambridge debating society among many human rights groups and high profile people
www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/131185/cambridge-students-brand-israel-a-rogue-state

yes they found that hamas's adding in the first place was not done with the appropriate information. Hence their campaign to join the world stage and achieve legitimate rights as a nation.

Totally agree, Shakshuka, with your posts.

There are many here who have attacked both you and I as if we were representatives of Netanyahu or the Israeli army, just because we oppose nutters on both sides and desire peace.

That is bizarrely illogical - to me, as stated before, there are 2 sides in this conflict but they are not (bad, evil) Israelis v (good, oppressed) Palestinians, which I regard as a ludicrous demonisation of one side v ludicrous whitewashing of the other.

Nor - as SippyDippy seems to assume - do I see the 2 sides as (noble, heroic) Israel v (bad, terrorist) Palestinians.

Actually, I see the 2 sides as (good, normal) people who want peace (whether they are Israeli, Palestinian, or live abroad) v (war-mongering) nutters (on both sides) who try to stoke up war - either because they will personally benefit from it (eg Netanyahu, Hamas leadership, other Middle Eastern leaders who can use the focus on Israel-Palestine to deflect attention from their own atrocious record on human rights), or because they have been brainwashed into thinking one side or the other are 'perfect' (it's clear SippyDippy falls into this category).

The reality is that the Israeli government does some shitty things AND Hamas and the PA do some shitty things - and they should all stop them. Trying to come up with a hierarchy of shittiness in which you debate whether shooting a teenager who's tried to stab you is better or worse than shooting your political opponents, say, seems ultimately a rather pointless pursuit. I have no problem with accepting they are both wrong. We could all come up with numerous stories of things nutters on both sides have done wrong and SippyDippy is seriously deluded if s/he thinks I'm going to celebrate the things Israel has done wrong. However, I see no sign that SippyDippy recognises A SINGLE THING that has ever been done wrong by the Palestinians - which is the difference between us.

I don't think Israel needs to be 'perfect' to have a right to exist - because if 'perfection' was the requirement for a state to exist, there would clearly be no states anywhere in the world! Nor do I think the Palestinians need to be 'perfect' either to deserve a state.

I do think that people like SippyDippy - or yes, you too, SlaggyIsland, until you admit that there are wrongs on both sides and stop trying to vilify one side only - are part of the problem, not the solution.

Contrary to the stuff you read in some very biased media, this is not a simplistic tale of goodies v baddies, like a bad 1950s Western. And you're not the Sheriff who's going to ride into town on your shiny horse and sort out those no-good Israelis.

Try to read outside of your narrow echo chamber. Palestinians are not children. Israelis are not all Netanyahu. The truth is more complex, but ultimately gives a lot more cause for hope.

Sordid - ah, the Cambridge debating society.

Oh well, if they've decided something, then that's an end to it clearly.

How could I possibly argue with the undisputed authority of that well-known international organisation, the Cambridge Debating Society?

So Sordid, which side of the debate are you on?

Are you pro-Peace or anti-Peace?

Because those are the only two sides that matter.

I have seen nothing here that suggests that you are anything other than anti-Israeli. Which is very far from pro-Peace - because obviously a peaceful conclusion needs to take the wishes of both sides into account, if it is to be successful and fair. Do you only acknowledge things that are wrong when they are done by one side? Because if so, you are pro-War, and a humungous hypocrite, while we're at it.

Okay nom I'll explain my position. Yes of course there are wrongs on both sides. However there is a vast power imbalance, allowing one side to carry out wrongs to a far greater scope, and also allowing them far greater control of the narrative of the conflict and how that is perceived and reported.
And failure to acknowledge that is, imo, problematic.
I hope that clarifies my thinking on the subject.

It's entirely possible to recognize the power imbalance yet also critically examine the steps both sides need to take to achieve peace while also commending positive aspects of each side. It's not mutually exclusive and quite necessary to achieve a meaningful peace.

The fact that Israel is stronger does not mean that their claims or grievances are any less well founded.

Thanks Slaggy. Not sure I agree with you about control of the media being one-sided and biased against the Palestinians. In fact, a lot of the bias clearly goes the other way (not all - but a lot). I don't have time today but am happy to show you lots of evidence for that assertion another day and maybe you might revise your view on that if you saw some of the evidence. It's certainly shocked me - but if you limit your reading to certain sites, you may simply be unaware that there is another side to the picture.

Of course there is a power imbalance in terms of military resources and international recognition, but again, I don't think that's a full reflection of the truth - because although the Palestinians are not strong or rich, they get astonishing amounts of military backing and financial support from abroad. So I think it is less a David and Goliath situation than you picture it - Israel's existence is very clearly threatened by its neighbours who support the Palestinians, as well as/more than they are by the Palestinians themselves.

I think any potential solution needs to acknowledge and resolve fears on both sides and needs for security on both sides, or it's not going to get anywhere. A solution which ignores Israel's need for security and focuses only on Palestinians' needs will not be accepted by Israelis, and it's unreasonable to expect them to do that. People often like to compare the situation with S Africa (not a very accurate comparison in my opinion) - but it's helpful to remember that Mandela was successful precisely because he acknowledged that a regime change that threatened to murder the whites or replace one kind of racism (white good, black bad) with another (black good, white bad) would not be accepted or be much of an improvement. By doing what had apartheid had failed to do - recognising the common humanity of people of ALL races - he managed to end apartheid. Had he simply sought to replace one ruling race with another, he'd rightly be regarded with opprobrium not admiration. The Palestinians - and Israelis - need another Mandela. Bit short in supply at the moment!

I'm pro peace, hence my attendance at numerous peace rallies..

Judging by your posts you're just anti Israel.

What's the bet that at your 'peace' rally they chanted 'between the river and the sea, Palestine will be free'?

And was this a general peace rally or just one which was against Israel?

I also believe that it could be helpful to move beyond the terms "pro-Israeli" or "pro-Palestinian" towards being pro-peace. It would be nice if the two didn't have to be mutually exclusive, with some people blindly supporting one side or the other as if they were football teams.

During the Gaza war last summer a group of Israelis in the US wrote the following letter, which urges an end to the occupation and includes the statement: "We believe that supporting equal rights for both peoples is the only way to build a better Israel and a better Palestine."

What's the bet that at your 'peace' rally they chanted 'between the river and the sea, Palestine will be free'?

Nope, we chanted Free Palestine. Maybe if you go along to one you will see that they are made up of compassionate people who want the deaths to stop.

I don't see how battling very hard to be a neutral as possible helps to achieve peace at all, it's what criminals like netanyahu want as it enables them to carry on as they are without facing any sanctions.

I think a far more effective way would be to start tackling the agressor - Israel, who has already shown they will and do casue massive loss to civilian life. The illegal settlements need to be addressed and stopped, they need to face justice for war crimes commited and there needs to be severe sanctions and boycotting action to force them to reassess their options.

Palestine should be recognised as a state and from there a 2 state solution agreed.

Why chant free Palestine at a 'peace' rally?

I have seen these rallies, they're very much anti Israel and not just for peace. I've seen with my own eyes the placards which wipe out Israel. They're not pro peace unless it's a peace in which there is no Israel.

I remember the second Lebanon war and the signs saying 'we are all hizballah' which was a wtf moment for me given what hizballah stand for.

Right the wrongs first, then the world will believe israel when it says it is pro-peace. Israel carrying on slaughtering palestinian children will just further put it's reputation in the gutter. And by Israel I mean the brutal occupying force.

The occupying Power has also attempted to change the status of the occupied territory or parts of it and to change the demographic composition of the territory through the illegal confiscation of land and the transfer of Israeli civilians. The occupying Power has repeatedly attempted to justify many of these measures by citing its security considerations or military needs. For years, the Israeli Government claimed that the illegal Jewish settlements were built to serve security needs and considerations. In reality, however, the occupying Power has been driven by an expansionist vision or ideology and, using its enormous military capabilities and a complex system of economic, legal and administrative policies and practices, has fervently pursued the implementation of this vision. Another fundamental aim of the occupying Power has been to prevent the realization of Palestinian national rights. The result of these measures has in fact been a gradual change in the situation in the Palestinian territory to that of one under active colonization