To feel it is high time that Israel/Palestinian issue got resolved?

[SippyDippy]

conflict us starting up again. I cannot bear another round of children being killed indiscriminately. The super powers would have you believe that it is all oh so very complicated. its not though is it. It is so bloody unfair how those children will keep dying if the status quo is maintained. Something needs to change.

Norah

Apparently quoted to a reporter in 1976, 5 years before he died in 1981 but not published until 1997.

Solid convincing evidence to me that Israel started it all, and the Syrian government has not, did not and never will attack Israel.

My leaders? Who are my leaders?

I have no problem in saying that military detention of children (and adminsitrative detention for that matter) should stop forthwith. It's immoral and wrong.

I have no problem criticizing Israel when criticism is due.

BUT in the case of this particular 13 year old boy who, according to Abbas, was executed in cold blood, there will be no military detention or jail since he is a resident of East Jerusalem and the attack was carried out in Jerusalem, both areas in which Israeli civil law applies.

Anyone notice that Dayan was talking about sending tractors to farm the land and that the Syrians were shooting in response. Why were the Syrians shooting at tractors? And bombarding kibbutzim? Just because Dayan, who was a bit of a loon, said it, doesn't mean it was true. He was also pretty disgraced following the 1973 war so who knows what he was saying to cover things up? You don't need to believe everything you read just because you like the sound of it.

And what about Egypt? Why did Egypt attack Israel in 1967? You know, when Israel won the Sinai peninsula yet returned every last inch of it in return for a peace treaty (they didn't want Gaza)? What did Israel do to provoke that attack?

And what did Israel do to provoke the attack from Jordan? Actually, poor King Hussein didn't want to attack Israel. he knew he'd lose the west bank, he knew Egypt and Syria had been beaten. but he had to because otherwise he'd be blamed for Egypt and Syria losing and he'd lose his whole kingdom.

To be honest, I'm bloody glad that Israel holds the Golan Heights now. Can you imagine if not? What a field day ISIS would be having with Israel in its sights? I thought it was a mistake not to have pushed more and compromised more to return the Golan Heights for peace with Syria. I hold up my hand now and say that I was wrong and it was good that the peace talks failed then.

And just so you can see what was being said by the Arabs and Israelis on the eve of the six day war, i've copied and pasted some quotes from May/June 1967 - ask yourself who exactly is provoking whom.

"The existence of Israel has continued too long. We welcome the Israeli aggression. We welcome the battle we have long awaited. The peak hour has come. The battle has come in which we shall destroy Israel." - Cairo Radio

“Israel wants to make it clear to the government of Egypt that it has no aggressive intentions whatsoever against any Arab state at all” - Israel’s Prime Minister Levi Eshkol

“The Zionist barrack in Palestine is about to collapse and be destroyed. Every one of the hundred million Arabs has been living for the past nineteen years on one hope – to live to see the day Israel is liquidated…There is no life, no peace nor hope for the gangs of Zionism to remain in the occupied land.”

“As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel….The sole method we shall apply against Israel is a total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence”. - Cairo Radio’s Voice of the Arabs broadcast

“Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse any aggression, but to initiate the act ourselves, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland of Palestine. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united. I believe that the time has come to begin a battle of anihilation.”- Syria’s Defence Minister Hafez Assad (later to be Syria’s President).

"We want a full scale, popular war of liberation… to destroy the Zionist enemy" - Syrian president Dr. Nureddin al-Attasi speech to troops

"Taking over Sharm el Sheikh meant confrontation with Israel (and) also meant that we were ready to enter a general war with Israel. The battle will be a general one and our basic objective will be to destroy Israel” - Gamal Abdel Nasser speech to the General Council of the International Confederation of Arab Trade Unions

“We will not accept any…coexistence with Israel.…Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel….The war with Israel is in effect since 1948”. - Gamel Abdel Nasser press conference

“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear - to wipe Israel off the map” - President Aref of Iraq

“Under the terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery, coordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria, is in a position to cut Israel in two at Qalqilya, where Israeli territory between the Jordan armistice line and the Mediterranean Sea is only 12 kilometres wide”. - Al Akhbar, Cairo's daily newspaper

“Brethren and sons, this is the day of the battle to avenge our martyred brethren who fell in 1948. It is the day to wash away the stigma. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa” - Radio broadcast by Iraqi President Abdel Rahman Aref

“Those who survive will remain in Palestine. I estimate that none of them will survive.” - Ahmed Shukairy, chairman of PLO in Jordanian Jerusalem, asked in news interview what will happen to the Israelis if there is a war

“You must not do anything to entangle Israel with the Jordanians...” - Israel’s newly-appointed Defence Minister Moshe Dayan, instructs the head of the Israeli Army Central Command

And, of course, why was there no Palestinian state established in the WB and Gaza prior to 1967 when they were controlled by Jordan and Egypt respectively?

Just wondering.

And sippydippy I do hope you've spoken to your leaders (whoever they may be since I do not know where you live, where you voted, what you do - things you seem to have assumed about me) about all the other human rights abuses in the world which are far far worse than the detention of children.

You know, like the things which go on in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Sudan, South Sudan, Eritrea, Nigeria, Dubai, etc etc (just pick your country, the list is far from exhaustive)

Or is your obsession interest reserved only for Palestinians (and probably only those in the WB and Gaza).

nomnomnom you're being pedantic. It is quite obvious when i say Israel i refer to the governing body of that country. The same way people will refer to britain or USA in other conversations.

Actually, as I pointed out, only 29% of the 64% of eligible Israelis actually voted for Netanyahu

oh yeah, about that. Israel's a wonderful democracy isn't it? not so good at the voting business is it. I had huge respect for the israelis who "gave" their vote to those who were blocked from voting.

shakshuka you are saying over and over about palesting rejecting peace deals. You're not exactly painting the full picture there.

Have you forgotten what happened last summer? a period of peace was negotiated, under conditions of no fire from either side. All was going ok until israel claimed one of it's soldiers was missing and had been kidnapped. Cue them firing (can't remember the exact number) but a significant amount of missiles into palestine. Only to then find that the soldier hadn't in fact been kidnapped at all. Israel has made it clear they are not interested in peace, why would they be when they've got away with so much already.

And anyway you'd have to be an idiot to believe that they are "bombing for peace" Bombs and missiles do not achieve peace, the civilian death toll was horrific and netanyahu should be strung up before the icc.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to use "Israel" as a synonym for the "Israeli government" in the same way as one might talk about US intervention in the Middle East. Of course no one believes that all American people are guilty of crimes perpetrated in their name, any more than (I hope) people believe that all Israelis support the atrocities perpetrated by their government.

I think it is very likely that many Israelis quietly despair of their racist government, but dare not speak their minds, because anyone who suggests a negotiated solution tends to get accused of getting into beds with terrorists.

Sordid - "Israel's a wonderful democracy isn't it? not so good at the voting business is it. "

No - you've lost me. There's obviously some sarcasm in your tone, but I'm not clear at whose expense? - in what way is it 'not good' at the voting business? Because people voted for different parties? Because 64% of people voted in the election, virtually identical to the % that voted in the UK? Because Netanyahu got elected, which is one of the downsides of any democracy, that a person you don't like might win, as happened in the UK? I assume we are in the UK must be pretty rubbish at democracy too, in your estimation.

I assume you're certainly not comparing it with Gaza, which is so bad at democracy it's actually stopped bothering with it altogether. Obviously, we have no idea who Palestinians would support if they were allowed to vote, because they haven't been given that option for 10 years, there is no sign that they'll be given that option ever again, and Hamas routinely murders its political opponents.

Thanks, but I'll take the Israeli version of democracy any time.

if you exclude gaza,just one in every 4.5 people living in israel has the right to vote. Hence why last election, there was a widespread media campaign of israelis who were giving up their vote (can't remember the word for it) for one of those not allowed to vote, because they are stongly against the israeli voting system.

At the last election getting on for 2 million adult residents were disenfranchised; nearly 4 million if you include Gaza.

Whatever you want to call it, that's not democracy. Anywhere else in the world I believe it would be called "apartheid".

Mistigri - Israelis 'dare not speak their mind' about opposition to the Israeli government? Are you being serious??!!

Ha ha ha - Israelis protest all the time.

Are you sure you're not confusing it with Gaza, where Hamas routinely executes its political opponents?

You needn't take my word for it; here's the Guardian and Amnesty reporting on it:

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/hamas-executed-palestinians-under-cover-gaza-conflict-amnesty

israels crimes predate hamas, like that lovely time they were using white phosphorous on civilian targets in gaza, it's only 2 yrs ago they decided to restrict it.

non why do you make the frankly ridiculous assumption that anyone who thinks the Israeli government are a bunch of racist psychopaths doesn't also think much the same thing about some Palestinian groups?

An extremist is an extremist, and two wrongs don't make a right.

Well, it's a bit more complicated than that, Sordid and Mistigri - Israeli Arabs can and do vote (if they wish - not all choose to) and Muslims can and do become members of parliament, ministers etc. So hardly apartheid.

It seems a bit odd to me if Palestinians who live and have already voted in what they regard as a separate sovereign country - Palestine - also want to vote in Israel, a country they don't even recognise the existence of...

And when you say that 1 in every 4.5 people in Israel has the right to vote, which seems a very curious statistic (source?? - which borders of Israel are we using for this calculation?), that still compares really well with Gaza, where 0 in every 4.5 people, ie no-one, has the vote, because elections are no longer held. At all.

"non why do you make the frankly ridiculous assumption that anyone who thinks the Israeli government are a bunch of racist psychopaths doesn't also think much the same thing about some Palestinian groups?

An extremist is an extremist, and two wrongs don't make a right."

Mistigri - glad to hear it, because it doesn't come across from your posts. If you read back, you'll find I make (spookily) exactly the same point.

if you exclude gaza,just one in every 4.5 people living in israel has the right to vote.
I read that and thought, .

Off I trotted to our friend Google. 4th hit tells me:
'If we exclude Gaza, one in every 4.5 people living under Israeli rule doesn’t have the right to vote in the coming elections'
So... you got your numbers arse about face, and you included the West Bank as part of Israel. Either you are exceedingly slack with your facts, or you are on a propaganda mission.

I'm not saying Israel is ideal. I think much shit has been dealt by both sides. I favour a two-state solution, though I have no idea if that would be workable given the events of the last century or so.

all total crap.

Same old, same shit different day....

Sordid - not sure whether you're going to imagine I support using white phosphorus on civilians? Just to clarify - I don't. Did Israel do this? Do you have a link to prove this? You might be right, and if so I would absolutely condemn it, but I'd like to see some evidence for assuming it is 100% true, as your other posts seem a little on the biased side, shall we say?

And can you clarify - do you think that if Israel did do this, that makes it OK for Hamas to murder its political opponents then? Because I have yet to read anything by you that suggests that the situation is anything other than Good Noble Palestinians against Bad Horrible Israelis. Which seems a rather unhelpful and inaccurate simplification.

Thanks, Lumela - I couldn't see how that stat could possibly be correct, and oh look - it's complete bollocks...

Unfortunately, this kind of uncritical or downright deceitful and dishonest statement is exactly why we're in the situation we're in.

People with dubious motives publish this stuff, other people who are at best gullible and at worst malicious believe them and spread it, and suddenly Israel is the worst country in the world for democracy/human rights/apartheid etc.

do i have the link to prove it? you mean you don't know about it?! very well documented, i will try and link (see if it works)

And yes i got it the wrong way round, it's late, i'm tired, my point is that people try to make out israel is a country not so different to the uk, but the reality is very different.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22310544
"During the offensive, Israel used white phosphorus rounds in densely populated areas, the UN and Human Rights Watch said. "

the UN school they hit
friendsofpalestine.wordpress.com/resources-and-readings/image-galleries/photos-of-israeli-white-phosphorus-attacks-on-un-schools-in-gaza/

Sordid - could you try to be more careful with your use as stats as unfortunately all it takes is one person to publish a massive error like the one you made on a thread like this and then in the game of Chinese Whispers that is the internet, it will suddenly take on a new life on its own, as a supposed 'fact' quoted by someone, who will insist they read it on the internet, so 'it must be true'.

Yes, I condemn Israel's former use of white phosphorus, of course.

Do you condemn any actions at all of Palestinians? Or are they all as pure as the driven snow in your eyes?

yes i condemn the extremists on both sides that incite hatred and killing and commit crimes. But I understand that there is a big difference between the two in terms of power. Palestinians are resisting an occupation, israel with it's powerful military and funding are commiting war crimes and getting away with it. The death tolls speak volumes. I was never interested in the middle east politics or israel/palestine before last summer. When I saw all those children being killed, day after day, it absolutely broke my heart. You don't forget that many children being killed overnight. Those are crimes that netanyahu still hasn't answered to.