To feel it is high time that Israel/Palestinian issue got resolved?

[SippyDippy]

conflict us starting up again. I cannot bear another round of children being killed indiscriminately. The super powers would have you believe that it is all oh so very complicated. its not though is it. It is so bloody unfair how those children will keep dying if the status quo is maintained. Something needs to change.

SlaggyIsland - "I'm also a bit bemused at the argument that borders change all the time so that's okay. Most of the changes to borders in Europe have been the consequence of war, with large-scale death and displacement. It's a painful process. The constant "shifting" of the Israeli border equally has consequences to those on the receiving end, already living there. Conflict, death and refugees. So it's pretty wrong to talk lightly about borders shifting as if it were no big deal. "

The wars have already happened - and yes, they were a painful process - for all concerned. They were definitely a big deal.

That's how the borders have shifted. The biggest shift obviously occurred after the Second World War when the wave of revulsion after the Holocaust was discovered played a role in the UN's support for the creation of a Jewish state in Israel. Other, smaller wars since have delineated borders further.

We obviously can't change the past. But changing the future is possible. The current inhabitants of the area can choose to a. agree on current borders b. agree - by peaceful means - to change the borders to a compromise that suits both sides, or c. they - or one side only - can choose not to agree and not to negotiate peacefully and can start a war.

There isn't an option d. where they can get in their time machines and go back before the foundation of the State of Israel and pretend it never happened.

Now personally I am strongly in favour of option a. or b - as no-one gets hurt.

You appear to prefer option d, and are not unsympathetic to option c.

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion, but if the Palestinians choose to attack the Israelis to redefine the borders, rather than choosing to negotiate, then the chances are that they (the Palestinians) are going to get hurt, some of them are going to get killed and some of their homes etc destroyed. You can't attack your neighbour and assume they're not going to defend themselves with whatever force is required.

Elly Higginbottom - are you being serious?!

You wrote:

"Flawed analogy. Children who were abused by their parents or other adults go on to become adults themselves, and the situational power balance shifts. Palestinians won't ever reach the 'adult' stage of your analogy as long as they're living under an occupation."

So basically you think the Palestinians are like children?

With friends like you, who needs enemies? How astonishingly patronising. You actually couldn't be more orientalizing if you tried.

Have you actually ever met a Palestinian? Do you think all foreigners are 'like children', or only Palestinians??!

Nom nom do you like twisting other people's words to whatever suits you? It is after all, a well known Israeli method. At no point did slaggy island say what you are implying that she said. And at no point did Elly say what you are suggesting that she said.

Oh and by Israel, I mean.... occupying force.

Should Palestinians just watch their children being shot in the back by Israeli soldiers and stand with a banner demonstrating peacefully?
If that was your child, what would you do?
As I said, this latest situation has not occurred in a vacuum. Yes the Palestinians are not totally blameless, but let's see Israel take responsibility for the sheer aggression that it has unleashed on the Palestinians for the last 50 years. If you want peace, if you want land, then why should the Palestinians not have a right to peace or land? Israel does nothing to stop settlements, it actively builds. It is enshrined in israeli law to treat Palestinianslike second class citizens in true apartheid style. Stop the violence yourself and give Palestinians that which you crave so much for yourself, and you just might find that such gesture might go some way to healing the wounds you inflict on them daily for the last decade after decade after decade.

Oh...and just to clarify...I am talking about Israel, and by Israel I mean...yup, you guessed it - the occupying force.

SippyDippy - anyone reading this thread can make their own mind up about what previous posters said as I helpfully quoted their words. So the opposite of 'twisting' them, really.

I'm not really clear (and nor do I really care, truth be told) which bit of what I posted you regard as twisting' someone else's words, but if you're going to criticise something I've said, it would be helpful if you'd be specific about which bit you were referring to (ie quoting my words) because otherwise you just come across as rude. Or like you haven't actually read the post/s you're commenting on.

As to your second point, Israel isn't an occupying force, it's a country. The two aren't the same, no matter how many times you repeat the phrase 'by Israel, I mean.... occupying force.' It would be like calling Britain 'an occupying force'. It doesn't make any sense. If you mean the Israeli army, then say so. Israel is a state not an army.

You can't attack your neighbour and assume they're not going to defend themselves with whatever force is required.

will someone please tell israel that?

and how about terrorist state nomnom will that be suitable?

I'm not sure if the status has changed now but last i heard the un had removed Hamas from it's terrorist list, and one of the leading human rights groups had added the idf to it's list of leading violators of children's rights, alongside isis and boko haram.

Also before my "terrorist state" is disputed, it's pretty widely accepted amongst groups that Israel is a rogue state - considering itself above international law.

edward said would have a field day here. The noble savage who must not compromise his ideals and for whom violence is unavoidable.

If the conflict is all about occupation, then why was there not peace before 1967? Where was the Palestinian state then?

If I were Palestinian, I think I'd be doing everything to prevent another intifada because Palestinian violence doesn't achieve much for them either.

Ah, so Hamas is no longer a terrorist group now. They're all peace and light and love ??

Shakshuka, no the intifada - or uprising against Israeli oppression, does not achieve much for the Palestinians except to stand up aginst the oppression and to rage against the injustice. They have nothing to lose have they.

Oh dear nomnom, please check again. Israel is most definitely an occupying state. Such misinformation or outright lies thar you believe, or spread.

The U.N. Security Council has confirmed the applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Jerusalem, in 25 resolutions. Many of those resolutions call upon Israel, the occupying Power, to comply with the provisions of the Convention and to accept its de jure applicability. The General Assembly, along with other bodies of the U.N., has adopted scores of resolutions affirming the same position, as well as calling for an end to the occupation and repeatedly affirming the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and the need for the realization of those rights.

Israel, however, refuses to accept the de jure applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention to the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Jerusalem and has committed serious violations of every relative provision of the Convention. At the start of the occupation, Israel, the occupying Power, immediately began imposing countless repressive measures, such as administrative detention, deportation, home demolitions and other forms of collective punishment, against the Palestinian civilian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, inflicting enormous suffering and harm on them.

• See more at: unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6B939C57EA9EF32785256F33006B9F8D#.dpuf

Shak, Israel have a history of voting in terrorists like Ariel aka 'the butcher', and the most recent one who likes to 'mow the lawn' netanyahu. There are plenty more extremists and terrorists with their own political parties in Israel who seem to delight in incitement, terrorism and brutality against palestinians and like to treat it as a competition.

Which beacon of peace, light and love will israel vote in next I wonder. So many extremists to choose from. They are truly spoilt for choice.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-removed-from-list-of-terrorist-organisations-by-eu-court-9930124.html

SippyDippy - could you please refrain from being rude about things I have never actually said.

What I actually said:

"Israel isn't an occupying force, it's a country. "

What you said:

"Oh dear nomnom, please check again. Israel is most definitely an occupying state. Such misinformation or outright lies thar you believe, or spread."

As you seem to have problems understanding my post, let me repeat it again, clearly.

Israel is NOT a force. It's a country.

It is correct to say it is an occupying STATE. It is NOT correct to deny (as you did in your earlier description of it as merely a FORCE) that it is a legitimate STATE.

That is the point that I was trying to make, that you seem to be wilfullly obfuscating - presumably because you you don't wish to acknowledge that Israel is a legitimate state.

I have repeatedly said throughout this thread that some things have been done by the Israeli state that I don't agree with - just as some things have been done by the British state that I don't agree with. That in no way delegitimises the State of Israel - any more than Britain is delegitimised by its actions. Apart from maybe Scandinavia, every other country in the world does some crappy things. Or occupies some other places. Britain occupies loads. Do you protest against Britain with the same vehemence?

You seem to think that Israel is in some way uniquely awful or something. It really isn't. I'd rather live in Israel a million times over than in Saudi, as a woman. I'd rather live in Israel than anywhere else in the Middle East, actually, as both a woman and a non-Muslim. If I was gay, yup, I'd rather live in the country where there are huge gay pride events, not the ones that throw gay people off buildings or execute them. Israel's not perfect, no. But I think it does a fairly reasonable job considering the security implications it faces.

I don't really know why you have such a particular obsession with Israel. I'm willing to bet large sums of money you've never actually been there or know any Israelis at all.

The Palestinians have plenty to lose.

And they have lost.

They could have had a state by now if thy wouldn't have started the second intifada.

And the third will drag them down further.

Both sides have no problem voting in (well, not sure if what the Palestinians do is quite voting) people who use violence but why you use this to defend Hamas is beyond me.

No wonder Israelis think the eu is biased against them!

Nor would I be surprised if you've never actually met a Palestinian either.

I certainly hope Ellie with her charming comments about Palestinians all being like children has never actually expressed that view to a real Palestinian.

"will someone please tell israel that?" - perfectly valid point, Sordid, and I agree - both sides should calm it down not provoke the other side.

"how about terrorist state nomnom will that be suitable?" - blatantly not, Sordid, Israel is a universally recognised (except for its enemies on its borders) and legal state. That's just a silly thing to say.

Excellent well argued and balanced posts nom to a rather rabid obsession with demonising Israel.

Sordid - you wrote:

"before my "terrorist state" is disputed, it's pretty widely accepted amongst groups that Israel is a rogue state - considering itself above international law."

Amongst 'groups'. What does that mean? Groups of what? Your mates? Alcoholics? Palestinians? Giraffes?

I'm not very convinced here of the authority of your statement - it's certainly the first I've heard of it, and I try to keep abreast of news from that part of the world.

Could you provide the link from a reputable source/s, please, as to which 'groups' we're referring to here?

And another one, Sordid - can we have chapter and verse please for the source of this other extremely unlikely claim?

"last i heard the un had removed Hamas from it's terrorist list, and one of the leading human rights groups had added the idf to it's list of leading violators of children's rights, alongside isis and boko haram"

Will this turn out to be another of those 'oops, I was tired and got my facts backwards but that's OK because Israel's a bad un - I just know it in my bones' posts that you're so fond of making on this thread?

I wait with baited breath.

*Nor would I be surprised if you've never actually met a Palestinian either.

I certainly hope Ellie with her charming comments about Palestinians all being like children has never actually expressed that view to a real Palestinian.*

Edward Said would be having a field day here!

I liked Sippy's assertion that the 'noble savages' have nothing to lose. How very brave to say so behind a keyboard in Surrey. The Palestinians I know all have pletny to lose.

The Independent link that you posted, Sordid, makes it clear the EU does still regard Hamas as a terrorist organisation:

"the court stressed that taking Hamas off the list was a decision taken on "procedural grounds", rather than implying "any substantive assessment of the question of the classification of Hamas as a terrorist group"."

So you'll need to find a better link. And could you please remember that the EU is not the same as the UN!

Were you 'tired' again when posting this particular post?

Had you thought of not making accusations until you've had a chance to actually check you're not making them up first?

Just to say that I have not read the in's and outs of this threat but what I have seen has shocked me deeply.

I feel the need to contribute that Loss of life of both sides is loss of life. The situation is incredibly complex and entrenched. Israel however, has never celebrated loss of life.

I wanted to include this list, wishing you good luck if you wanted to boycott Israeli products:

prepperchimp.com/2014/07/22/so-you-want-to-boycott-israel-heres-a-list-of-products-and-services-you-need-to-start-with/

Shakshuka - yes, lots of noble savages, lots of infantilised Middle Eastern people on this thread.

Posted by people who seem to have no concept of reality or to have ever visited the region or met any of the people they so passionately defend (or attack).

How difficult is it to understand that we're all people, hopefully overall good but with some right nutters spread around too. Neither Israel nor the Palestinians are immune from the nutters and I sincerely hope the good people on both sides can get together to work for peace.

I described this thread as being like a playground before - using that analogy, people like the OP are like those people who gather round when they see a sign of trouble shouting 'fight! fight! fight!' gleefully, safe in the knowledge that it's not going to be them who gets their head kicked in. Of course it doesn't serve the interests of those the OP pretends to support.